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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms
    #7683261 - 11/26/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

María Sabina became bitter about her many misfortunes, and how others had profited from her name. She also felt that the ceremony of the velada had been desecrated and irremediably polluted by the hedonistic use of the mushrooms: "From the moment the foreigners arrived, the 'holy children' lost their purity. They lost their force, they ruined them. Henceforth they will no longer work. There is no remedy for it."

Shut down your grow rooms boys & girls. The famous shamaness has decreed the mushrooms will no longer work. Go ahead and eat 10 dried grams and - nothing!


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683300 - 11/26/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps she meant something a little more specific or subtle? Not that they wouldn't get people high anymore. This is pure speculation, but maybe she meant that something had shifted in her own culture, due to the massive amounts of attention they'd recieved, and they'd lost a certain connection. Or that the mushroom 'realm' had been polluted by the shitbags travelling there and that had heavily effected the quality of journeying experienced by herself and her people. I'd have to do some ethnographic research to actually interpret this statement with any accuracy... but so would you. :shrug:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683370 - 11/26/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The curious folks that went down there such as Wasson, Leary, Lennon, Dylan and others are 'shitbags'?

The Shroomery and the rapid spread of cubensis spores would likely not have happened (or not until much later) if it were not for the visiting westerners tripping out and bringing back samples. Damn them! :mad2:

LSD, peyote, XTC, and other popular drugs did not originate in the PNW - and even though you have local grown psychedelic mushrooms, few if any, were aware of their magic until after Wasson met Sabina.

Many of the foods you eat and things you utilize have been brought from other cultures. Were the traders 'shitbags'? And what of the people that use such things - what does that make them?

No tacos and beer for you, young lady - no tofu or hummus either. :nono:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683392 - 11/26/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It wasn't just the ones you mentioned. A lot of scruffy hippies went down there to eat the mushrooms and generally acted like damn fools. I specifically remember an anecdote somewhere about one of them chasing a chicken through the village, trying to eat it.


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You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7683439 - 11/26/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

People act like fools all over the world - even *gasp* the local villagers. That does not change the biochemistry of fungi or plants nor does another person being a jack-ass change one's relationship to the cosmos.

The more likely scenario is: She was the head honcho and liked the adoration for a while from both the locals and the turistas. Then the 'hippies' took the magic back with them and she was no longer in charge of dispensing the hongitos. The high priestess lost some power as spiritual leader and was not pleased.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683442 - 11/26/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not making any judgements here, just suggesting that you may have misinterpreted her statement. This is something you are ever so prone to doing when talking about people from other cultures. I used the term 'shitbag' jokingly, and not with the intention to reference to any of the people you listed.

The issue here is analysing Maria Sabina's views. Not mine. I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the diffusion of culturally valued foods, drugs, objects, tools, stories, practices, etc. This is a simple fact of life. I was suggesting, however, that from her perspective things went to shit after white people started showing up. She wouldn't be the first to feel that way, and her feelings wouldn't be groundless by any means.

From the perspective of a member of culture A, the unusual way culture B regards a diffused item could be disrespectful, blasphemous, or just plain silly. When things diffuse, thier meanings are usually left behind. For something so deeply meaningful to Culture A (and with mushrooms to MS, we're talking world-view, religion - big stuff) to be regarded with a much different set of values in culture B would likely be disconcerting to those who shared it.

Your response had nothing to do with anything I said. You like to play rational, don't you? Well, let's go honey. Anthropology is my forte.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683501 - 11/26/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The power of a method or process cannot be taken away. The cultural underpinnings, i.e. beliefs, may be lost which are all imaginary to begin with.

We used to eat the mushrooms whole and in pairs while shaking a rattle five times, but the westerners grind em up and just each a handful in juice and do not use a rattle. Now our ceremony won't work even when they are not around.

Her people thought she was necessary for the magic. Outsiders realized the shrooms alone would suffice. It is the Wizard of Oz syndrome.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683526 - 11/26/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The power of a method or process cannot be taken away. The cultural underpinnings, i.e. beliefs, may be lost which are all imaginary to begin with.





It doesn't matter whether or not this is true, the point is to understand what she is saying from her perspective. I don't know about you, but I find it sad that our culture storms around the world and tears other's cultures apart, whether intentionally or entirely accidentally.

Every world view is imaginary including ours, but that is what makes a culture a coherent whole. When it is torn apart, it tears the people apart, both as a group and on an individual, psychological level.

You can laugh all you want at the ignorant little brown lady who thought the ceremony mattered, but the fact is, her culture was irrevocably damaged by ours, and I find this a reason to mourn.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683569 - 11/26/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

From Wiki: Sabina is regarded as a sacred figure in Huautla. At the same time, her image is used to market various local commercial ventures, from restaurants to taxi companies. T-shirts bearing her image, smoking a filterless Alas cigarette, are sold in markets throughout Mexico.

Damned Gringos! :mad2:

Quote:

the point is to understand what she is saying from her perspective.



I explained it (and my guess is as likely as yours). She welcomed the strangers and basked in the limelight for years before she bitched. She lost HER power, NOT THE MUSHROOMS! No one likes to be exposed or demoted or have their role be diluted. Anyone can test that they still have power so that is not an issue.


On an unrelated topic, I said that I wanted to see YOU dancing bare, not that I wanted to see A dancing bear. Get it right.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683625 - 11/26/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

it's the play to win card game mentality that reduced the social/psychological impact of the veladas.

you see, the curiosity of a student is different from the curiosity of a consumer or a gamer.

wasson et al really were students, those who followed were gamers and consumers of experience.

maria's message should dissuade gamers and consumers of experience from further interest.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683749 - 11/26/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


From Wiki: Sabina is regarded as a sacred figure in Huautla. At the same time, her image is used to market various local commercial ventures, from restaurants to taxi companies. T-shirts bearing her image, smoking a filterless Alas cigarette, are sold in markets throughout Mexico.

Damned Gringos! :mad2:





Maria Sabina was Mazatec, not Mexican. The state of Mexico is to the Mazatec as the state of Canada or the United States are to the Blackfoot or the Iroquois. The fact that Mexican capitalists have exploited the image of Maria Sabina does not reflect poorly on her or her culture. So what's your point? Do I really have to explain these things to you, or are you willfully ignorant just for fun?


Quote:

On an unrelated topic, I said that I wanted to see YOU dancing bare, not that I wanted to see A dancing bear. Get it right.




:smirk:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683779 - 11/26/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Are you having trouble with the word 'local'? First it's the evil white hippies, now it is the Mexican capitalistas? It's a conspiracy!

ALL cultures grow and shrink and absorb or are absorbed by other cultures. Has your ancestry always been rooted to a few square mile radius of where you now live? Have you ever moved? Do you not know that all of mankind emigrated from a small area in Africa?

Must I really explain the nature of change to you or are you just being petulant?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683824 - 11/26/07 10:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's no a conspiracy, it's the nature of colonization. I clearly understand how this works, and have expressed so numerous times. It's also not about feeling guilty or pointing fingers at white people as a homogenous lump. It is about recognizing history and it's implications.

My family is from Ireland, and I had a very unrooted childhood- moving around constantly. I learned in great detail about the evolution and migration of our species from Africa in an archaeology course I took last year. I am several courses into a probable anthropology degree, and a specific interest of mine is culture change. Before I began my formal studies I did a great deal of personal research on anti-colonial critical theory. Critical ethnography is a particular interest of mine. I fully understand the concept of change, and am being "petulant" because my values regarding it oppose yours. Of the two of us, I am probably the more knowledgeable in this area, and have proven it time and again. You can try all you like to build a straw man to burn down, but it is undeniable that I make the stronger argument.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683852 - 11/26/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My family is from Ireland, and I had a very unrooted childhood-moving around constantly.



Destroying cultures wherever you went?

Quote:

it is undeniable that I make the stronger argument.



*Shmoopy scribbles in notebook: Making a claim about the strength of one's argument is in and of itself a valid argument*
A de facto or obvious statement does not need to be made except by someone who doubt's her position.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7684400 - 11/27/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Destroying cultures wherever you went?




Yeah, destroying the mono-culture of the suburbs I bounced between between birth and my teen years. :tongue:

I notice that you rarely respond to the substance of my posts, but rather choose to pick out erroneous, unimportant sentences to joke about. I'd like to see you take a stab at critiquing the fundamental premises of my arguments - which would involve critiquing the validity of the fundamental premises of cultural anthropology and of anti-colonial critical theory. Maybe than we'd actually get somewhere. :shrug:

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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684426 - 11/27/07 01:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Maybe than we'd actually get somewhere. :shrug:




This implies a sense of where we should get, does it not? Clearly the thread is getting where the interaction amongst the individuals participating are taking it - it is as it is. One person's sense of where it should get is irrelevant if they are incapable of taking it there, or if others with a different sense choose to act in ways that do not result in it getting there.

There's no "somewhere" to go, when we are already here. :mushroom2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684483 - 11/27/07 02:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Listen to Zen Master FWG. :bow:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684489 - 11/27/07 02:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, destroying the mono-culture of the suburbs




Here you mock the culture of the suburbs (which is far from mono) while elevating less modernistic cultures to rarefied heights. Why is that?

No refrigeration, high infant mortality and superstition = superior and more worthy of preserving?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7684506 - 11/27/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Our culture, and the culture Maria Sabina came from, treated drugs in very, very different ways. Something I've noticed is that cultures exposed to alcohol generally undergo a transformation in their approach to inebriants in general - into something far more hedonistic. American natives use ayahuasca, peyote, and magic mushrooms as sacraments and medicines; western society has alcohol, and has used it heavily for thousands of years as a straight-up inebriant. Native cultures simply don't have any drugs like alcohol what so ever, and yet our own culture has developed around alcohol as a lubricant for millenia. This causes quite a divide in the way we approach drugs.

In short, even when people like us are tripping and knowingly using a drug that is spiritual and mind-expanding, there tends to be at least a hedonistic tinge in our approach to something that has historically been used in a solemn, spiritual context. That's because the most basic entheogen in our society is alcohol, a simple inebriant that is most widely used to PARTAY.

I don't have a hard time at all imagining that many (not all) of the travelers to Oaxaca had far less respect for the mushrooms than Sabina was willing to accept, and she was legitimately offended by the disrespectful ways of the outsiders. Is it that hard to imagine?


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 02:25 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7684516 - 11/27/07 02:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How does one disrespect dead & dried fungal matter?


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