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OfflineNibin
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Why wont White sugar work in a LC
    #7672314 - 11/23/07 07:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So, when anyone on this forum mentions using white sugar to make a LC everyone tells them to use turbinado sugar. Why is this?

Karo is a mixture of glucose and fructose while table sugar is made out of sucrose(a.k.a saccarose) which is a molecule made out of one glucose and one fructose molecule.

So essentially they are the same thing, except that the sucrose has to be broken down by an enzyme, which I am sure the mycelium must produce as we produce it (amilase) even in our saliva.


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Invisibleorchidfanatic
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: Nibin]
    #7672346 - 11/23/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I dont think mycelium can break down sucrose . plus honey or maple syrup has micro nutrients. why try to fix what isnt broken .

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Offlineacommunistspy
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC *DELETED* [Re: orchidfanatic]
    #7672355 - 11/23/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by acommunistspy

Reason for deletion: this never happened



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OfflineNibin
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7672379 - 11/23/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That I know of, Karo is pure glucose/fructose syrup with a bit of salt and vanilla essence, nothing else.

So would white sugar work as long as a bit of salt was added?


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7672385 - 11/23/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

acommunistspy said:
yea the mycelium probably can't break down the sucrose especially in it's early stages (germination?). and karo, honey, turbinado all have minerals and micro nutrients in it also.




Oh and if mycelium from newly germinated spores can break down complex starches from rice or grains, why couldn't they break down a simple sucrose molecule?


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Offlineacommunistspy
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC *DELETED* [Re: Nibin]
    #7672401 - 11/23/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineQDP843
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7672575 - 11/23/07 09:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)


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Offlineacommunistspy
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC *DELETED* [Re: QDP843]
    #7672600 - 11/23/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by acommunistspy

Reason for deletion: this never happened



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Offlineresptodd
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7672816 - 11/23/07 10:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So would it be better to use a normal saline instead of water to mix the sugar into?


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: resptodd]
    #7673494 - 11/24/07 03:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My point is this:

Karo works well as a LC. Karo is made out of glucose and fructose and a bit of salt.

White sugar is made of sucrose (which is made out of glucose and fructose) but has no salt.

Also, as a kid, I remember my mum making bread, and she would "start" the yeast in a glass of warm water with sugar and always added a pinch of salt. and yeast is a fungus...

Thanks for the above posts, already read them but it doesn't give a reason why sugar doesn't work.

I'm suspecting that since the only difference between Karo and sugar is the salt, that if some salt is added it should work well.

Methinks it is time for some experimentation


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InvisibleSausage
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: Nibin]
    #7674235 - 11/24/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

sucrose is a disaccaride meaning that it's made out of 2 different molecules, glucose and fructose.

the difference between table sugar and karo is simply the addition of water and heat. the heat breaks the bond between the glucose and fructose.

basically the myc doesn't have to break the bonds itself before it can utilize it
the myc will colonize faster since it doesn't have to work as hard.

the salt adds nothing other than flavor..


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: Sausage]
    #7674319 - 11/24/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

swhite sugar has everything removed from it, sugar is not white.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: Sausage]
    #7675417 - 11/24/07 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sausage said:
sucrose is a disaccaride meaning that it's made out of 2 different molecules, glucose and fructose.

the difference between table sugar and karo is simply the addition of water and heat. the heat breaks the bond between the glucose and fructose.

basically the myc doesn't have to break the bonds itself before it can utilize it
the myc will colonize faster since it doesn't have to work as hard.

the salt adds nothing other than flavor..




Whenever I have seen a yeast mixture made for bread for example, salt was added to the sugary water . I can see how added salt can be of use to mycelium as it will need them to multiply.


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InvisibleSausage
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: Nibin]
    #7675954 - 11/24/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Salt is not needed for yeast to multiply. Salt actually inhibits yeast growth.. In a bread recipe for example it's not enough salt to kill all the yeast but it will inhibit some.. The reason salt is in the recipe is flavor, if you've ever accidentally left salt out of a recipe for bread you'll know why it's there.. your bread will taste bad, my grandmother would call it "flat"..

Yeast also is a simple fungi, single celled. It reproduces by budding or by division. It has no myceilial network, it produces no fruit bodies. So you're kind of comparing apples to oranges. I'm not going to rule out the possibility that a myc network could have a use for a limited amount of salt, i doubt it, but I'm not going to rule it out.

and here's a study on:

Effect of Sodium Chloride on Bakers' Yeast Growing in Gelatin

Chia-Jenn Wei,1 Robert D. Tanner,1 and George W. Malaney2

1Departments of Chemical Engineering and Civil and Environmental Engineering, 2 School of Engineering, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee 37235

Abstract
In recent years, industrial fermentation researchers have shifted their attention from liquid to solid and semisolid culture conditions. We converted liquid cultures to the semisolid mode by adding high levels of gelatin. Previous studies on liquid cultures have revealed the inhibitory activity of mineral salts, such as NaCl, on the fermentation of sugars by yeasts. We made a kinetic study of the effects of 1 to 5% (wt/vol) NaCl on the alcoholic fermentations of glucose by Saccharomyces cerevisiae in a growth medium containing 16% gelatin. Our results showed that the effect of high salt content on semisolid culture is essentially the same as the effect on liquid culture; i.e., as the salt content increased, the following occurred: (i) the growth of yeasts decreased, (ii) the lag period of the yeast biomass curve lengthened, (iii) the sugar intake was lowered, (iv) the yield of ethanol was reduced, and (v) the production of glycerol was increased. We observed a new relationship correlating the area of kinetic hysteresis with ethanol production rate, acetaldehyde concentration, and the initial NaCl concentration.


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Edited by Sausage (11/24/07 08:29 PM)

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OfflineNibin
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Re: Why wont White sugar work in a LC [Re: Sausage]
    #7676927 - 11/25/07 04:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Intrigued by why my mum would add salt to the water she used to dissolve the yeast in, I picked up my copy of the Joy of Cooking and found out that she used it to inhibit yeast growth as we live in a very warm climate.

Ok, we have reached the conclusion that high amounts of salt will inhibit growth. it makes sense as increased osmolarity of the surrounding fluids slows down cell metabolism.

But, I was wondering about very small amounts, the same that Karo has. It makes sense that the mycelium would need a certain amount of sodium chloride as it is needed in all cells to maintain electric and osmotic balance, and newly formed cells will need to get it from somewhere, they can't make it out of thin air.

In Karo the salt concentration is 1.16 gr per litre which is 1.16 permille, not percent, so ten times more dilute that the concentrations in the study you quoted.

It also happens to be the only difference between Karo and sugar+water (We already know that the fact sugar is a disaccharide isn't an issue as we also use brewers malt for LCs and the main sugar in it is maltose, another disaccharide).

I'm prepared to bet money on the fact that is someone made a solution with 31-40gr Sugar and 1.1gr Salt per litre of water it will work as well as Karo.

Anyone feel like experimenting? I'd do it myself but I'm not going to need to make an LC till next month.


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