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Offlineshroom_ninja
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tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth
    #7610685 - 11/08/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

After reviewing a few different teks, and checking the FAQs, I haven't been able to find a very definitive, consistent answer for this, so I was hoping that I (and anyone else who has the same question) could get some opinions, or better, some educated opinions or data on this.

Question: How important is temperature while the cakes are still forming in jars? Some teks recommend 80°F, some higher, and a few suggested that room temperature was near-perfect. I know that temp/humidity is vastly important during fruiting, but my question is regarding the in-jar mycelial growth, specifically.

I'm using two separate (different ratios of BRF&verm.) substrates, and (allegedly) three types of cubies (mexican, ecuador, b+).

I will probably put 80% of my jars on the recommended method and try a control group with either heated or unheated just to experiment, and post back.

Thanks in advance for any advice, guys.

EDIT: I should have mentioned.. my room temp fluctuates between 65-80, and averages about 75 (pretty normal..?), should that be of relevance.

Edited by shroom_ninja (11/08/07 11:24 AM)

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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7610704 - 11/08/07 11:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)



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Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610713 - 11/08/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610717 - 11/08/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)



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Offlineshroom_ninja
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610722 - 11/08/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You couldn't have been more helpful, sir! That's an incredibly helpful article and graph.

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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: monstermitch]
    #7610724 - 11/08/07 11:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

for the lazy..

Quote:

monstermitch said:
the core substrate temperature does effect linear growth of mycelium.

the peak of this growth comes at a 86 degree inner core temperature.
which for pf jars means about a 80-82 degree ambient air temperature.
for grain jars it's about a 76-80 degree air temperature,
and for bulk substrates it's a 68-75 degree air temperature.

The thicker the medium that is colonizing, the more heat it will
produce on it's own while colonizing.
A 5lb substrate bag can easily be 15 degrees warmer in the
substrate than the surrounding air.

If you go just one degree over 86 for inner core temperature,
linear growth rates fall off dramatically.



once the inner core temp goes over 86, bacteria becomes a very
real and major concern. plus mycelium growth quickly slows.

the key is to keep the inner core temperature between 80 and 85.
that's done by first figuring out about how thick the medium is,
then adjusting the air temp accordingly.

for any and all substrates and media, room temperature is your
safest and best bet. The growth rate will be very good and the
chance for overheating and ruining the media will be very low.
at most you'll only lose about one day on optimal growth, but you'll
gain tons of peace of mind and a great success ratio. which is
worth it's weight in gold... or shrooms.




--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Offlineshroom_ninja
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610745 - 11/08/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It looks to me, from the graph, that installing this fish-tank heater just to raise the temp 5-10° is worth the effort, which is exactly what I was wanting to know. Thanks again, and as I mentioned, I'll verify as my jars colonize.

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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610747 - 11/08/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

REMEMBER: those are the internal temperatures of the substrate, not the ambient temperature ranges. Because mycelium is exothermic a bulk substrate can generate anywhere between 5-15(F) degrees of heat on their own so your ambient temperatures need to be adjusted accordingly. More often than not, it's easier just to keep everything at a solid 75(F) for an ambient temperature...


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.

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Offlineshroom_ninja
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: mycocurious]
    #7610762 - 11/08/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They're generally well within 70-75°F, would you say that it'd be worth the effort to move from a simple box to a heated tub type environment? I can't very well measure the core temp to make sure they're under 86°, but I might invest in some small thermometers to keep inside the jars in the future.

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Offlinec0_hush
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7610922 - 11/08/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I plan on keeping my incubator temp @ 82-84F as numerous different sources suggested the increase in jar temp is negligible @ around 2F.


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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: c0_hush]
    #7610958 - 11/08/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so do you take myc's temperature rectally or orally?


--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Offlinec0_hush
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610966 - 11/08/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

orally..  seems less prone to contams :wink:


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610968 - 11/08/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I used to use a tub-n-tub, but tried room temp incubation at 78f, and never really went back to using an incubator.

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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: c0_hush]
    #7610979 - 11/08/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

c0_hush said:
orally..  seems less prone to contams :wink:



tushay


--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Offlineshroom_ninja
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7610991 - 11/08/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My initial thought was that perhaps heating is a great idea during early colonization, since there would be little to no heat caused by mycelium, since there really is none formed initially.

However, Mycocurious' suggestion concerning bacteria growing seems to counter this thought, since (to my logic) bacteria is most likely to ruin a jar at this early period since there is no mycelium to compete with.

Can anyone elaborate? I went ahead and set up my incubation tub, and told it to sit at 78°... Since there should be no core temp yet (4 days in, no visible formation), I am assuming that this is safe, and probably helpful. In any event, again, I will make sure to post the results in case other people were considering the same process.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: Slimz]
    #7611005 - 11/08/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The graph in TMC showing maximum mycelium growth at 86F is just flat out wrong. Growth slows down dramatically at 83F and above. Growth is flat between 75F and 82F, and then slows down above that. I recommend 75F because bacteria and thermophilic molds are slightly suppressed at that temperature, but the cubensis mycelium is in its maximum rate-of-growth temperature.
RR


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Offlinec0_hush
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7611008 - 11/08/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think keeping the temp low does help inhibit bacterial growth, BUT if the cake's already contaminated, I'd think it would just grow at a slower rate, as would the myc. It takes 30 days for myc to grow at 76F vs half that time @ 86F, so I've heard.

In the end, you might have to throw out a contaminated jar anyway, all a low temp would do is have you find this out in twice the time, IMO.


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7611030 - 11/08/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm perfectly happy colonizing my spawns and substrates at room temperature without any heating beyond the ambient temps, provided they're somewhere between 72(F) and 78(F). You could even go a bit lower if need be... bacterial contaminates don't really flourish until temps rise into the 80's. Every once in a while a bacterial contaminate will survive pasteurization, however, if the mycelium is allowed to grow in temperatures that are within it's acceptable range but still below the bacteria's optimum growth temperatures to avoid the contamination all together.

Incubating closer to ideal temperatures will speed up colonization but will not be able to protect it against those random few bacterial contaminates that have survived the sterilization process. From a long term point of view, your sacrificing a couple jars to contamination to shave a day or two off the process. And you're also (likely) spending money on some sort of incubation chamber unnecessarily for the same reason.

It's not that it's a bad idea, if you were going to start a little home-based business selling organic edibles to the local organic markets, the opportunity cost shifts in favor of incubation but if you're just doing this as a small scale hobby, it's probably easier to wait those couple extra days.

As always, YMMV...


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.

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Offlinec0_hush
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: mycocurious]
    #7611052 - 11/08/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If the difference is in fact only a few days and less chance of contams, it would be well worth it! I was under the impression that a 10F difference (74F vs 84F) was cutting the growth time down by as much as half..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: tek question regarding temp during mycelium growth [Re: shroom_ninja]
    #7611064 - 11/08/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
We have two identical threads on this subject going at the same time, so I'm going to close this one, so the same stuff doesn't need to get repeated endlessly. It's hard enough to keep up with the disinformation posted in one, but two at once is double trouble.
RR

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