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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
the right of ownership of ones body
    #7565577 - 10/27/07 02:20 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

on the one hand... i respect the right to do with ones body as one wants... but on the other hand i see that sometimes i do not respect this right

for example, is it okay to allow a small child to smoke cigarettes?

personally i dont think it is because they are unable to appreciate the health risk involved and because our society has fiduciary responsibilities that supersede

but since i have made a distinction there is now a gray area... i cannot say that this right is universal because we all have "a body" yet some bodies have this right and some do not... and if i follow this line of reasoning i realize that this cannot properly be called a right at all, at least as i have defined it in my mind

yet the idea that one has the right to do whatever to ones own body appeals to me

therefore (i think...) perhaps that 6-year-old really does have the right, just as i do, to smoke cigarettes and drink hard liquor if they want

yet that idea does not appeal to me whatever

what to do... what to do...

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7565602 - 10/27/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7565616 - 10/27/07 03:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

i agree with you

should this right be rephrased then?

"one can do whatever to ones body, so long as they understand the consequences"

OR

"one can do whatever to ones body, so long as they are capable of understanding the consequences"

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7565644 - 10/27/07 03:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Who gets to decide who understands the consequences? This seems like a rather vague way to determine rights. Could some religious maniac decide that an adult who chooses premarital sex doesn't undestand the consequences (hell) of thier actions and subsequently repress thier agency? 'For thier own good' is always the reasoning behind strict moralistic societies, but this tends to be a mask for power's own biases and attempt towards furthering total social control.

ps- what's with your signature, dude? Who's that guy and why does he deserve to be killed?

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7565665 - 10/27/07 03:27 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

you are absolutely right

the conditions attached to both statements are difficult to satisfy absolutely (if not impossible)

:frown:

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7565703 - 10/27/07 03:52 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"one can do whatever to ones body, if one is at least 18 years old"

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,301
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7566022 - 10/27/07 08:09 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

There is a reason society is called "Big Brother" by some, or "the Nanny state". Brothers, nannys, and parents have the right, by association, to guide the actions of those not old enough to make decisions for themselves.

It's a very natural thing to do, and most mammals exert some control over the actions of their young. It's all gotten rather foggy because the state generally appreciates this natural right in it's capacity to produce results which it finds desirable (which change over time), and when parents cannot measure up, the state jumps in.

Humans are odd though because we've taken pack mentality to extremes which other animals are not capable of. Problem is, the state is no better a parent than the average neurotic parent. It sees pro action towards self injury as preventative action towards injury of others, and will impose itself on the individual without being sure of the outcome.

In some ways, this is true, even natural, but there is no end to the amount of influence the state can have. It will not be happy until there is no power outside it's reach. Personally, I think we're fighting natural selection. Live and let die, or experience genetic regression. It's not the people the state wishes to save. It is the state viciously defending itself. Perhaps your desire to prevent a child, which is not you own, from smoking, is not much different?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Rahz]
    #7566938 - 10/27/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

perhaps

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OfflineBoots
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7567916 - 10/27/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

These questions are hard to answer. In some cases, having authority look out for you works out, but in other cases, authority has no clue.

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OfflineNova


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7569559 - 10/28/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
therefore (i think...) perhaps that 6-year-old really does have the right, just as i do, to smoke cigarettes and drink hard liquor if they want

yet that idea does not appeal to me whatever





When I think about this I think about the war on drugs. It's obviously some authority telling us what I can and cannot do with my body. But as much as I would like to go to the 'acid and heroin depot' everyday to get my fix... it just doesn't seem right or that it would work out for society.

I think we don't necessarily have the right to tell the youth or people in general what to do, but in some cases have the responsibility to use our experience to help guide naive people.

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OfflineGomp
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7569696 - 10/28/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Why would one need to own, what one are/be/is?

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Gomp]
    #7571487 - 10/28/07 11:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

ownership is maybe the wrong word

the right to self-determine may be a better way

these thoughts make me uneasy

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7571567 - 10/29/07 12:16 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

As they say "rules are made to be broken". The state can draw lines which say when someone is deemed responsible enough to take control of things like this. This can be useful, at least it puts into peoples minds that children need to be protected. But each individual is different so people mature at different rates. If your underage, and you feel your ready to experiment, and the government says your not, you just break the rules like I'm sure we all did. Rules just stop society as a whole from going into compete chaos, but they should be broken at an individuals whim so as to not make it go into complete mindless conformity.

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InvisibleaDoS
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Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 7,590
Loc: land of the free
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7571740 - 10/29/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.




/signed

Exactly what I was thinking.


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7571829 - 10/29/07 03:59 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.




This statement is so vauge that it simply could not represent the nature of reality. The fact is, children could be developed enough to make decisions like that, and some individauls may never have the right experience to come to the conclusions that would ensure they were responsible for themselves. In fact, it could be said that, if children were not to make decisions like that, they could never have the experience necessary to form their own conclusions.

The fact is, the right to "ownership" of one's own body is one's own, regardless of one's age or relative sense of development and experience. I think it is likely that, as most human beings do not regard children as responsible entities that make their own decisions and are responsible for themself, most humans never grow to the point that they are truly responsible for themselves, as human beings develop relative to their interaction with reality. 

The fact that some might look to a child and conclude that, as they are the child's parent, they have the right of ownership, they are more inclined to attempt to control than guide. Parents cannot make decisions for children, but they can build relationships that provide a foundation of trust, as well as influencing the child's interaction with our environment.

Children are sovereign as well. :sun:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7571851 - 10/29/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

children are controlled, the question is whether this is justifiable

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7571860 - 10/29/07 04:57 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
children are controlled




Not anymore than anyone is controlled, really. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7571867 - 10/29/07 05:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

i admire that you can state that so clearly

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7571881 - 10/29/07 05:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My statement was vague? No more vague than any other statement. But putting that aside. Children should be raised in a controlled environment so that they can get there bearings before being exposed to potentially life and death decisions. Because i can almost guarantee that if they are, they will die. Human brains aren't even fully developed until after the teenage years. A child has no appreciation for their own vulnerabilities, these they have to be carefully exposed too. It would be like putting someone in the water who hadn't learned how to swim, they would almost certainly drown. Instead you tell them how to swim, and let them learn in a place where the dangers are limited.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7573163 - 10/29/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Normally, children don't enjoy smoking cigarettes.
So why adults do ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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