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 kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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 VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials 
#7367092 - 09/04/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/04/verichip-chipping-200-alzheimers-patients-for-rfid-verimed-tria/
Maybe it's our inevitable future, but we still can't help but feel a bit icky at the thought of VeriChip implanting VeriMed RFID chips into 90 volunteers suffering from Alzheimer's. The two-year trial program, VeriMed Patient Identification Project, will involve 200 patients, and apparently so far everybody is pretty upbeat about the idea. We first heard about this a couple months ago, but it seems things are really ramping up. The chips are designed to manage the records of the patients and their caregivers, and VeriChip is confident that it'll be growing into other "high-risk patient categories" soon.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: kotik]
#7368262 - 09/04/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I feel a little strange about it too. My problem is when they start embedding data in ID cards or chips and forcing people to wear them to recieve government services or avoid arrest. In my mind this is the line we can't cross.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: johnm214]
#7368304 - 09/04/07 06:29 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I, too, feel a little weirded out by this...but as long as it remains totally voluntary, it's hard to find it wrong. Then again...how "voluntary" can one be while in the grips of Alzheimer's?
Of course, I do think that implantable devices will eventually become the norm...but they will be "active" devices, and not just passive like the RFID chips. I heard a few years ago about a company that was doing trials for a memory replacement device that sits in the brain and mimics the operations of a living hippocampus...
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: trendal]
#7368605 - 09/04/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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i've been following verichip closely since it went public, this isn't really that controversial in itself, but just another detail in the larger image.
imagine the chips starting with the old, and moving younger. at what point is it 'voluntary' to chip your child? 18? 16? Puberty?
who knows when, but eventually it could be accepted to just put a chip into a toddler, or pre-teen as if it were getting a booster shot.
Without getting too far off topic, i firmly believe that the majority of RFID actions (as far as integrating with government / law enforcement) will all be revolving around child-abuse, kidnapping and molestation cases. That's the other thing I look out for on the news, especially regarding how much is assumed by these news anchors, which create the lynch mob mentality that would ultimately make a verichip sound like a really good idea.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: kotik]
#7368643 - 09/04/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your probably right...and once we have a generation or two growing up with implants, we'll have adult implants "voluntarily" 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: trendal]
#7369266 - 09/04/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well the problem is that things like these start off voluntary, and then become defacto required. Like social security numbers. You needed them for social security payments and to pay the tax. Then you needed them for credit cards, driver's licenses, financial aid for post-secondary education.
We must insist that government benifits not be tied to these things. I don't think it will be too far off when parolee's are forced to have these in their neck or wherever. This would probably be constitutional too, as those convicted lose many constitutional rights.
We just can't have these be voluntary, but mandatory if you want a driver's license, or whatnot.
Keep it in the private sector, or for use for traking down children and whatnot, and its fine. Just don't tie it in with other things so the government can monitor you.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: johnm214]
#7369844 - 09/05/07 04:32 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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It is only a matter of time before they start chipping babies fresh out of the womb. The beginning of the end as far as anonymity is concerned. Coupled with the governments push for "RealID" and the future looks bleak.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: johnm214]
#7369845 - 09/05/07 04:32 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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even if they aren't required by govt right away, it will be done on other ways...
for example, anyone "chipped" gets 20% off gas, wal-mart purchases, food, etc.
Maybe people with chips get tax-breaks and other benefits.
I doubt they will start right away with anything mandatory, as that would create a resistance. Instead, they will just make it more convenient for those that "volunteer," and more difficult for those who oppose. Just like social security
Quote:
Keep it in the private sector, or for use for traking down children and whatnot, and its fine.
well wait a minute, that's a contradiction. How could you expect children to be chipped a tracked, but not have that information tracked in some kind of government / law enforcement database? The only way such a system would work, is if it were integrated with government databases.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: kotik]
#7369859 - 09/05/07 04:45 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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bribery is already here, buy grocerys with your "id" and get discounts.
only their is no discount because it was just marked up in the first place.
so in reality its, don't use your id and you PAY MORE.
anyways, these little cards will soon become the only way you will be able to buy food and gas.
no need to chip you if your life depends on a card.
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   We were sent to hell for eternity  Ø h®
We play on earth to pass the time 
Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
Edited by makaveli8x8 (09/05/07 04:46 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7369862 - 09/05/07 04:49 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bribery is already here, buy grocerys with your "id" and get discounts.
only their is no discount because it was just marked up in the first place.
I know, I hate that shit. I spoke with the manager briefly when that first came to my store. He said it was to give discounts... bullshit. Your right, they just mark up the prices for no reason, then restore them for card holders.
The below article bears-out my hunch:
Quote:
Moreover, studies have found that loyalty cards' primary purpose -- to offer savings to members -- do no such thing. In fact, stores that use loyalty card programs actually increase the regular prices of items for non-club members, making purchases more expensive for all buyers and reducing the margin of card members' saving to almost nothing. "Everyday" items can be marked up from 28-71% after card programs are introduced.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/loyalty_cards.html
And what criteria do you have to meet to get a card? none. Yeah what a gread discount program.
Edited by johnm214 (09/05/07 05:06 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: johnm214]
#7369948 - 09/05/07 06:43 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
well wait a minute, that's a contradiction. How could you expect children to be chipped a tracked, but not have that information tracked in some kind of government / law enforcement database? The only way such a system would work, is if it were integrated with government databases.
Yeah I agree, but it should be handled the same way voluntary fingerprint programs are- with a few tweaks perhaps.
The parents would have to consent to the chipping, and the person chipped could remove it when they are of age to consent- or the parents could initiate it. Ideally the police would be forced to discard the data at the request of the parents or chipped person- but this would probably be difficult to legislate.
The whole point is that the person chipped could initiate removal (at the age of consent for medical procedures) with absolutly no loss of benifits. Anything less starts down the road to a "voluntary" program that is anything but- (sort of like how the feds handed out highway money but tied it to legislating a 21+ drinking age and .08 dui level.)
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
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Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: johnm214]
#7370199 - 09/05/07 09:19 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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i have to agree it sounds great in theory, but I have absolutely no confidence that it would be put into practice in a way that's even close to transparent or ethical.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: kotik]
#7370423 - 09/05/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said:
i have to agree it sounds great in theory, but I have absolutely no confidence that it would be put into practice in a way that's even close to transparent or ethical.
Exactly. The whittling down of our privacy and right to anonymity is the greatest threat when done gradually. I'm still waiting for the day when you have to have ID on you when your in public- after all, why not, if you've got nothing to hide?
This will start with foreigners, where will it end?
Quote:
From The Sunday Times
August 19, 2007
Rudy plays the security card: ID for all tourists
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2284316.ece
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: johnm214]
#7370786 - 09/05/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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> The whole point is that the person chipped could initiate removal
Removal can actually be difficult and dangerous. The chips migrate in the body over time. (Plenty of information on google about verichip migration within the body.)
I suspect we will first see the chips used in hospitals, as they are discussing with Alzheimer's patients. They will use security as an excuse to chip babies. Chipped babies cannot get mixed up, and it would help prevent kidnappings from the hospital. Just like fingerprints, the chips would help identify runaways, lost children, and dead bodies. As soon as a large enough mass of people are chipped, the fed will step in and allow chipping to be used for RealID. With government backing, industry will follow suite, with banks and airlines requiring chips for identification. Just like social security numbers, it will remain optional, and just like social security numbers, it will be almost impossible to live in modern society with out one. (Somebody hand me some tinfoil, I am joining the mad hatter gang on this topic.)
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Just another spore in the wind.
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,379
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: Seuss]
#7371079 - 09/05/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Banks and airlines already require ID. I need ID to gain access to the building I work in, as well as move through the hallways (I need to slide my ID for clearance). The toll booths I go through to get to work can image my license plate, and I bet the camera's at various stop lights could do the same.
While I'm sure chipping may faciliate some aspects of surveillance, if the government really wants to track someone, they can do that relatively easily in the absence of chipping. Considering they can already do it, it might be quite convenient to have everything on your chip, and leave home each and every day without keys, your ID or wallet.
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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.
Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.
...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.
Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
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Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: VeriChip chipping 200 Alzheimer's patients for RFID VeriMed trials [Re: badchad]
#7371651 - 09/05/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Banks and airlines already require ID. I need ID to gain access to the building I work in, as well as move through the hallways (I need to slide my ID for clearance). The toll booths I go through to get to work can image my license plate, and I bet the camera's at various stop lights could do the same.
While I'm sure chipping may faciliate some aspects of surveillance, if the government really wants to track someone, they can do that relatively easily in the absence of chipping. Considering they can already do it, it might be quite convenient to have everything on your chip, and leave home each and every day without keys, your ID or wallet.
heh, yes well convenience is the ONLY thing people have to gain via this type of system. I can't think of any other benefits whatsoever for an individual - plus, what at first seems like a convenience also removes the convenience of having the ability to choose whether or not you want to bring your ID, or whether or not you want to identify yourself.
Also, when you get mugged now, they take your wallet. i don't even want to think of what some people will do to get financial and private info from a chip. There will be a few people with RFID readers that can just walk by you and know your entire life story, down to financial status and medical history - but also those low-tech hackers that just chop your arm off.
In extreme cases, I imagine the scene from total recall where Arnie pulls the marble out of his brain through his nose.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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