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 Annapurna1
liberal pussy
 
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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 US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... 
#7364031 - 09/03/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/02/news/economy/worker_productivity.ap/index.htm?cnn=yes...
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp195...
average gross earnings..europe...
do the math...the average american worker is being forced to produce $63885 worth of goods and services each year...and at an average of 1804 hours per year at a median hourly wage of $14.70..(s)he only recieves a paltry $26518.80 or 41.5% of what (s)he produces...so if $63885 is 8 hours work..the average american worker gets a median of 3 hours 19 pay for 8 hours work...
OTOH..our hated enemy..france..only managed to extract a averge of $54605 from its workers in 2006...unfortunately..the only income statistics for france are from 2003 and is an average rather than a median..but at the 2003 average income of EUR 28847/yr..the average french worker gets paid %72.3 what (s)he produces and takes home %50 more than his/her american counterpart (based on $1.37/EUR)...in other words..france manages to put more wealth in the hands of more ppl (in absolute..not proportional..numbers) than the US..even though less wealth is produced overall...
the moral of the story..of course..is that beating ppl with a stick has indeed produced an extra $9280/yr per capita..but that contrary to what the ppl wielding the sticks would have us believe..entertaining their sadism does not by any means make the economy more efficient...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (09/03/07 11:02 AM)
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 rubixcubies
porch monkey ferlyfe
Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1,218
Loc: ottawa on
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7364057 - 09/03/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes but what does it all mean basil?
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: rubixcubies]
#7364072 - 09/03/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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It means you can create your own statistics to prove any argument.
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rubixcubies
porch monkey ferlyfe
Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1,218
Loc: ottawa on
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: YidakiMan]
#7364147 - 09/03/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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psht 75 percent of all people that say that just because they disagree with them.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7364160 - 09/03/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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let me get this straight... if i start a lawn care company that charges $50 to mow a lawn, and of that $50, i pocket $20 and spend the rest on equipment, advertizing, insurance, fuel, taxes, and storage facilities, you believe that i am fleecing myself?
if i hire someone else and "force" them to produce $50 per lawn they mow, but i pay them $20 of that and spend the rest as above, am i giving them only 40% of the pay they should really earn? should they get to keep all $50? should i, when i mow a lawn?
the headline of the story reads, "U.S. workers: World's most productive". this makes sense, because american workers have an incredible amount of (typically someone else's) productivity-increasing capital at their hands. it also means that they can expect to recieve, and are justified in recieving, a smaller cut of the selling price of what they produce - in developed economies, labor tends to be a smaller input cost proportionally.
if i started my lawn care company where there was no equipment available and my employees cut the grass with scissors, i'd be paying maybe $2.50 overhead per lawn and employees could have $47.50 for their labor - but it would take 50 times longer to cut a lawn, and they'd be less productive, making less money overall. from the article:
"The U.S. employee put in an average 1,804 hours of work in 2006, the report said. That compared with 1,407.1 hours for the Norwegian worker and 1,564.4 for the French.
It pales, however, in comparison with the annual hours worked per person in Asia, where seven economies - South Korea, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia and Thailand - surpassed 2,200 average hours per worker. But those countries had lower productivity rates."
... and lower average income and standard of living.
this has been one of your worst efforts.
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: wilshire]
#7364263 - 09/03/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of course the American worker pales in comparison to the sweatshop worker in Asia. What is the argument? The overworked American worker is a king in comparison to the little boy in Indonesia knitting my girlfriend's underwear?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: wilshire]
#7364339 - 09/03/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
this has been one of your worst efforts.
Agreed.
Very good post wilshire. I couldnt have done a better job myself.
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: rubixcubies]
#7364842 - 09/03/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
rubixcubies said:
psht 75 percent of all people that say that just because they disagree with them.
I would have preferred to lay it down the way wilshire did, but I didn't have my breakfast bowl-o-nugs this morning and things came out a little cloudy.
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7365125 - 09/03/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/02/news/economy/worker_productivity.ap/index.htm?cnn=yes...
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp195...
average gross earnings..europe...
do the math...the average american worker is being forced to produce $63885 worth of goods and services each year...and at an average of 1804 hours per year at a median hourly wage of $14.70..(s)he only recieves a paltry $26518.80 or 41.5% of what (s)he produces...so if $63885 is 8 hours work..the average american worker gets a median of 3 hours 19 pay for 8 hours work...
OTOH..our hated enemy..france..only managed to extract a averge of $54605 from its workers in 2006...unfortunately..the only income statistics for france are from 2003 and is an average rather than a median..but at the 2003 average income of EUR 28847/yr..the average french worker gets paid %72.3 what (s)he produces and takes home %50 more than his/her american counterpart (based on $1.37/EUR)...in other words..france manages to put more wealth in the hands of more ppl (in absolute..not proportional..numbers) than the US..even though less wealth is produced overall...
the moral of the story..of course..is that beating ppl with a stick has indeed produced an extra $9280/yr per capita..but that contrary to what the ppl wielding the sticks would have us believe..entertaining their sadism does not by any means make the economy more efficient...
Let's not forget that the headline statistic in your post is applied the other way around in some industries and occupations. In North America, and Europe, there are people who work 3 hours 19 minutes, and get paid for 8.
If it wasn't for inefficient businesses, management consultants would be out of work.
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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.
When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: wilshire]
#7365197 - 09/03/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
the headline of the story reads, "U.S. workers: World's most productive". this makes sense, because american workers have an incredible amount of (typically someone else's) productivity-increasing capital at their hands. it also means that they can expect to recieve, and are justified in recieving, a smaller cut of the selling price of what they produce - in developed economies, labor tends to be a smaller input cost proportionally.
it sounds like your saying that purchasing power necessarily weakens as productivity increases...if thats so..it can only be justified in the interests of inequality as an end to itself..otherwise it makes little sense to produce extra wealth that nobody can afford to buy...
Quote:
It pales, however, in comparison with the annual hours worked per person in Asia, where seven economies - South Korea, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia and Thailand - surpassed 2,200 average hours per worker. But those countries had lower productivity rates."
... and lower average income and standard of living.
OK..so now im confused ..in the previous paragraph you implied that higher productivity would nlead to a loss of purchasing power (and consequently lower average income and standard of living)...and now your saying that lower productivity leads to lower average income and standard of living...does that mean that income peaks at some optimal level of productivity between these two extremes?...
Quote:
The U.S. employee put in an average 1,804 hours of work in 2006, the report said. That compared with 1,407.1 hours for the Norwegian worker and 1,564.4 for the French.
im sure that US employees would work closer to 1500 hours/yr for 26615 euros if they actually had a voice in govt...why else would anyone work an extra 250 hours/yr than someone with the same job in france in order to make the boss $9280 richer??...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (09/03/07 09:12 PM)
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7365324 - 09/03/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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it sounds like your saying that purchasing power necessarily weakens as productivity increases...
i'm not saying that. if i was, i would be completely wrong. it's exactly, fundamentally, and completely the opposite.
what i said is that as productivity increases, through the use of capital, labor is a smaller portion of input cost, and therefore a worker will see a proportionally smaller cut of the final selling price of a good.
in other words, workers who cut grass with lawn mowers are more productive, and better paid, than those who use scissors, even though they take a smaller percentage.
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Luddite
I watch Fox News
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: wilshire]
#7365445 - 09/03/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I work about 3-4 hours a day and get paid for 8 hours. I can even trade stocks online at work and make even more money.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7366725 - 09/04/07 04:29 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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> im sure that US employees would work closer to 1500 hours/yr for 26615 euros if they actually had a voice in govt..
There is absolutely nothing to stop people in the US from working those hours should they want to. I don't know how much employers would pay them, but the government does not force US workers to spend a certain number of hours each week working. In fact, a lot of people in the US choose to sit around watching Oprah and collecting welfare rather than working.
> in order to make the boss $9280 richer??...
Oh, how I would love to watch you run your own company with your own employees. Speaking as a small business owner, you have no clue what you are talking about if you think that the "excess" money that employees are creating go into the owners pocket rather than going into the business making it possible for the employees to have a place to work. As an employer, I pay almost double what an employee sees on their paycheck in order to employ a person. If you make 25,000 a year, I pay nearly 50,000 total (including your 25,000 salary). I pay all sorts of taxes (unemployment tax, state tax, federal tax), I pay for those vacation days that you take, I pay for those sick days that you take, I pay for that retirement fund that you will get, I pay for that health care that you get, and I pay for all those expenses you generate. I also take all the risk, signing my name to long term leases for phone, for building, for insurance, for inventory. And on the slow months, where we don't make enough to cover all the bills, I pay your paycheck and I go hungry because I own the company. You really need to pull your head out of the sand on this one, because you have no clue what it costs to run a business, based upon what you have posted so far.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Seuss]
#7366952 - 09/04/07 08:52 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Seuss]
#7368261 - 09/04/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> im sure that US employees would work closer to 1500 hours/yr for 26615 euros if they actually had a voice in govt..
There is absolutely nothing to stop people in the US from working those hours should they want to. I don't know how much employers would pay them, but the government does not force US workers to spend a certain number of hours each week working. In fact, a lot of people in the US choose to sit around watching Oprah and collecting welfare rather than working.
> in order to make the boss $9280 richer??...
Oh, how I would love to watch you run your own company with your own employees. Speaking as a small business owner, you have no clue what you are talking about if you think that the "excess" money that employees are creating go into the owners pocket rather than going into the business making it possible for the employees to have a place to work. As an employer, I pay almost double what an employee sees on their paycheck in order to employ a person. If you make 25,000 a year, I pay nearly 50,000 total (including your 25,000 salary). I pay all sorts of taxes (unemployment tax, state tax, federal tax), I pay for those vacation days that you take, I pay for those sick days that you take, I pay for that retirement fund that you will get, I pay for that health care that you get, and I pay for all those expenses you generate. I also take all the risk, signing my name to long term leases for phone, for building, for insurance, for inventory. And on the slow months, where we don't make enough to cover all the bills, I pay your paycheck and I go hungry because I own the company. You really need to pull your head out of the sand on this one, because you have no clue what it costs to run a business, based upon what you have posted so far.
The tone of your post expresses your avatar mood completely.
And, I agree with you completely. There is a perception prevalent among some people with a left leaning persuasion, that anyone who owns a business has bags of cash lying around, scalped out of the enterprise at the expense of the employees. This is simply not the case for the majority of small business. These owners hope to earn a living, build enough equity in tangibles, have a decent return on investment; and either sell at some point for retirement, or pass the business on to their children.
I don't know what the failure rate is for small and medium sized owner business in the US, but I'd be willing to bet that there are considerable foreclosures every year. However, if these people did not take the risks that Seuss described, then the unemployment picture would be bleak indeed.
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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.
When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: hummermania00]
#7368288 - 09/04/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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your comparing apples & oranges...i fully agree that the owner of a small business is prolly putting in their 250 hours/yr extra in order to make the big boys $9280 richer too...in fact..ill be so bold as to venture that the sum total of all those $9280 increments ends up in few enough hands to count on your fingers...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7368310 - 09/04/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said:
your comparing apples & oranges...i fully agree that the owner of a small business is prolly putting in their 250 hours/yr extra in order to make the big boys $9280 richer too...in fact..ill be so bold as to venture that the sum total of all those $9280 increments ends up in few enough hands to count on your fingers...
I don't see any fruit disparity here. Your post described the average American worker.
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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.
When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: hummermania00]
#7370540 - 09/05/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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you said "worker"..which may also include the owner of a small business...but it definitely cant mean the big corporate bosses that are collecting all those $9280 increments...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: wilshire]
#7370632 - 09/05/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
it sounds like your saying that purchasing power necessarily weakens as productivity increases...
i'm not saying that. if i was, i would be completely wrong. it's exactly, fundamentally, and completely the opposite.
what i said is that as productivity increases, through the use of capital, labor is a smaller portion of input cost, and therefore a worker will see a proportionally smaller cut of the final selling price of a good.
in other words, workers who cut grass with lawn mowers are more productive, and better paid, than those who use scissors, even though they take a smaller percentage.
first of all..if every worker in every industry receives a smaller portion of the GDP..then (median) purchasing power is being lost.. but that doesnt mean that purchasing power necessarily declines as productivity increases...what im saying is that the converse (a productivitiy increase coupled with a decline in purchasing power) could be true in a far-right economy.. and the numbers do bear this out...
second of all..in your example with the lawn mower.. the lawn mower does get a smaller cut of what (s)he is charging to mow lawns due to increased equipment and maintaince costs.. etc...but realistically..those costs would be more consistent with the 72% share that french workers get as opposed to 41% in the US...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: US workers get 3 hrs 19 mins pay for 8 hours work... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7371272 - 09/05/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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first of all..if every worker in every industry receives a smaller portion of the GDP..then (median) purchasing power is being lost..
before i respond to that statement, how do you define "worker"?
but that doesnt mean that purchasing power necessarily declines as productivity increases...
oh lord. of course it doesn't. do you know where purchasing power and prosperity come from? they come from productivity!.
what im saying is that the converse (a productivitiy increase coupled with a decline in purchasing power) could be true in a far-right economy.. and the numbers do bear this out...
what numbers? per capita GDP correlates exteremly strongly with average income. they both go up at the same time. do you understand why?
second of all..in your example with the lawn mower.. the lawn mower does get a smaller cut of what (s)he is charging to mow lawns due to increased equipment and maintaince costs.. etc...but realistically..those costs would be more consistent with the 72% share that french workers get as opposed to 41% in the US...
what on earth are you talking about?
anna, can you make this easy on all of us and spell out exactly what point you're trying to make here? the title of your thread is a total fallacy as i think has been shown, so what are you getting at?
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