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Offlinepoof
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Registered: 08/07/07
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Freeze fresh then vacuum
    #7320110 - 08/21/07 11:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Ive read every single freezing and freeze dried thread on here and this has not been addressed:

Freezing fresh shrooms leads to a slimy product when thawed, as well as causing the cell walls to rupture while frozen exposing it to oxidation and rapid potency lost.

Freeze drying is reported quite effective, however agar reports having tried it with mixed results (it only worked some of the time).

I propose that without having to take the extra steps of freeze drying, that should fresh shrooms be kept frozen within a vacuum chamber that their potencies will remain in pristine condition. Of course the thawing issue still remains, but i make smoothies with my shrooms using frozen fruit anyways, so its all same to me.

If theres a flaw in my logic point it out, otherwise ill take silence as a no.

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Invisibledysphoria
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: poof]
    #7320150 - 08/21/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

so, say, fresh mushrooms sealed tightly in a vaccum sealed bag, frozen, then thawed and used immediately?


on the surface, im sure you know the answer already, and thats 'yes, it'll preserve the psilocybin/psilocin as well as when it was first picked and frozen'

but i fear its a bit more complicated than that..

the factors i can think of (which probably means theres 4x more that i didnt think of), is that psilocybin and psilocin, just like being heat intolerant, are also cold intolerant. heat kills the mushrooms, spores, mycelia, etc...even at temps of 120-130ish. cold does the same. its all about what temperature it does it that matters. also, freezing might rupture cells, and, psilocybin/psilocin being contained therein, are then able to be more readily oxidized. of course as you propose, vacuum sealing might address this issue adequately.

but then again, this is a chemical contained within the mushroom, not the mushroom itself that we are concerned with, and the fact of the matter is, we dont have the information needed on the intolerances of psilocybin/psilocin to accurately state whether freezing maintains potentcy, and whether cellular structure damage plays any role in oxidation. at least i dont have this information, anybody have it wanna share/link?

for instance, while the mushroom/mycelium might die at heat above, say, 120ish, we know that common drying methods up to 155 degrees actually maintain potency.

all in all, too many variables to say for sure.
though, i think you should try, and report back, cause it sounds promising =)
i would sugges


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Offlineclover606
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: dysphoria]
    #7320174 - 08/21/07 11:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

is there a reason you cant just dry them like everyone else? it works alot better.


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grassman said:

I remember being in DARE when i was much younger and some of the stories they would tell you are not only ridiculous, but completely untrue. One story was that a woman was on LSD and thought her infant was a turkey so she baked it in the oven. Now I look back and think thats hilarious, but at the time I guess it scared me.

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Invisibledysphoria
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: clover606]
    #7320196 - 08/21/07 11:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

right off the bat, i could say he might want to preserve psilocin, which cant be done via drying.


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OfflineTomBrady12
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: dysphoria]
    #7320376 - 08/22/07 01:06 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

i had improperly frozen shrooms once they turned balck and nasty, wait until they thaw and get all squishy, I couldn't do it again

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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: TomBrady12]
    #7320702 - 08/22/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Just a little personal note here:

Having tested a bunch of "fresh storage methods" let me just tell you that mushroom flesh does not take kindly to be frozen, ever, at all with the sole exception of liquid nitrogen, "flash-freezing".

The least horrible results I had were done by letting the fruit chill in the refrigerator for several hours before moving it into the freezer on the premise that it would create the same smaller ice crystals such as when you're creating ice-creams, etc.

But the least horrible results were still bad enough that they went straight into the compost pile without being touched. Somethings were just not meant to be preserved "fresh".


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:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

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------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.

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Offlinepoof
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: mycocurious]
    #7321089 - 08/22/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

my experiences with dehydrated mushrooms have left me not very impressed. They really do not compare to fresh, however i dont want to have to plan my trips according to my growcycles, or create my grows so that im cycling two or more at differing times, as that would be alot more work.

So your telling me, short of flash freezing them, even when frozen they will become slimy? well, my main concern still is whether they are potent or not, as they will be in a smoothie anyways so i doubt i will really sense the slime.

The main question to my post really is "does psilocin suspended in an aqueous solution (the mushroom) need oxygen to oxidize, or will it oxidize just from the water its contained in?"

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Offlinelightningbolt1
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: poof]
    #7321119 - 08/22/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Once the chemical itself is placed into a stable medium, what is the expected rate if deterioration?
Excluding a dried fruit body, of course.

If i made a gallon of fresh mushy tea, and sealed and stored it, how long could i expect that batch to remain at it's peak potency?


--------------------
In the land of the dark, the ship of the sun is driven by the Grateful Dead

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Offlinepoof
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: lightningbolt1]
    #7321145 - 08/22/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

This is all i could find as an answer:

Quote:


No, oxygen isnt always required for oxidation.
Elements F, Cl, Br are also strong oxidizers, as is Oxygen.
Many compounds can be oxidizers, some with no oxygen.

The other half of the reaction is the substance being oxidized.
If it is extremely eager to be oxidized,
then unexpected things like water (H2O) or Nitrogen (N2) can be the
oxidizer.
Those are weak oxidizers, but they are sometimes enough.
Reactive metals like Sodium (Na) are like that, when they are pure
elements.

An oxidation reaction is when one compound more-or-less steals electrons
from another.
Or when two molecule-parts bond together, but we believe from experience,
or from knowing our "oxidation numbers", that one part
tends to hold a little more than it's 50% share of the bond electrons.
Any time two parties to a reaction are unequal in the degree they like
electrons,
chemists usually say that one oxidizes the other.




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Offlinelightningbolt1
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: poof]
    #7321223 - 08/22/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

so how eager is psilocybin to oxidize?


--------------------
In the land of the dark, the ship of the sun is driven by the Grateful Dead

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Invisibledysphoria
lost soul

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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: lightningbolt1]
    #7321268 - 08/22/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

psilocybin is not eager at all to oxidize.
psilocin is more than eager to.

psilocybin actually just represents the stable isotope of psilocin.
afaik.


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Offlinesander
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: lightningbolt1]
    #7321298 - 08/22/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lightningbolt1 said:
Once the chemical itself is placed into a stable medium, what is the expected rate if deterioration?
Excluding a dried fruit body, of course.

If i made a gallon of fresh mushy tea, and sealed and stored it, how long could i expect that batch to remain at it's peak potency?




Along this line here, (sorry im not going to answer your question), I would imagine an alcohol extraction with the fresh mushrooms would preserve the chemical ratios that you want, although you would still have oxidation issues when you evaporate the alcohol, I feel like the alcohol is volatile enough that the loss would not be as bad.

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Offlinepoof
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: sander]
    #7321492 - 08/22/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

i believe based on the information that i found freezing shrooms within a vacuum would still lead to deterioration, but since H2O is a weak oxidizer in its liquid state and probably exponentially weaker in a frozen state, the rate of deterioation would be on par with dried shrooms, if not better (due to the oxygen free environment).

In the greater perspective, since drying shrooms requires massive amounts of air to pass over the oftentimes dissected mushroom, the total alkaloid content of a vacuuum frozen mushroom will greatly exceed that of its dried equivalent.

Should one find that the resulting slimy state of the shroom to be no problem in whatever method of ingestion one uses, this method may be superior to that of freeze drying for the simplicity alone.

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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: poof]
    #7321511 - 08/22/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What about blue honey...Mushrooms in honey. I would think that would stay good forever. Does honey go bad?


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #7322191 - 08/22/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

The bottom line is that fresh mushies are a special treat and there really are no viable ways to preserve psilocin - AFAIK.

it's just part of the magic of it all.

---
It's like trying to can freshly roasted coffee beans. They're only fresh for about 48 hours tops and then they turn into the bitter swill they want you to think is fresh. If you don't know what i mean, order some green coffee beans and roast them yourself (hot air popper will do the trick in a pinch) Fresh coffee requires no sugar, it's already sweet.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.

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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Registered: 02/09/07
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: mycocurious]
    #7322197 - 08/22/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

And to answer the bits about vaccumn sealed and then immediately frozen yields a substance that vaguely reminds me of eating raw river eel.

I wouldn't even risk it, freaked me out enough I wasn't sure i was still in the right frame of mind to trip...and i love suishi.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.

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Offlinepoof
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 209
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: mycocurious]
    #7322399 - 08/22/07 04:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ive tried honey, let me say doing so will make you hate the taste of honey. And that whole osmosis, imbibing the honey with alkaoids (blue honey) is pure bullshit. Even if it did work the best results you would get would be 50% of the alkaloids. Either as a preservative or as a ingestion medium, it simply doesnt work.

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Offlineexagram
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: dysphoria]
    #7322460 - 08/22/07 04:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dysphoria said:
psilocybin is not eager at all to oxidize.
psilocin is more than eager to.

psilocybin actually just represents the stable isotope of psilocin.
afaik.




They're actually both identical, with the difference that psilocybin contains a stabilising phosphorous component which prevents it from oxidizing readily. Psilocybin, when heated, exposed to light, or otherwise caused to lose its phosphorous component, becomes psilocin, and thus becomes readily degradable into mundane components.


--------------------
Raoul Duke: What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole lifestyle that he helped create - a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the acid culture: the desperate assumption that somebody, or at least some force, is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.

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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: exagram]
    #7322520 - 08/22/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

How long did you let the honey sit for?


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Offlinepoof
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Re: Freeze fresh then vacuum [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #7323646 - 08/22/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
How long did you let the honey sit for?




a few months. I think the original story involved using fresh instead of dry and hence the bluing of the honey, but we all know what happens when you put fresh mushrooms in honey.

Anyways i decided to test the freeze drying method with some button shrooms. As a control i froze one mushroom and let it thaw, and though the gills and stem are slimy the cap remained fine. Im not saying shrooms dont get slimy, ive left some in the fridge for a few days and it definitely was nasty, but for some reason these button mushrooms dont seem affected.

So i froze a pack of em, then vacuumed to 675mmHG (~.09atm) but unfornatutely to do this process successfully you must at least have a vacuum of .06 atm, which is 714mmHG(vac). Well technically you need <46 mmHG but my scientific grade vac reads 0 mmHG at rest, so i think it calculates inversely from normal pressure.. So i am about 35mmHG away from the bare minimum, and when i brought it to room temp as the next step to expedite sublimation it did enter a liquid phase and now is sitting partly soggy and not appearing to sublimate very effectively, although it certain is. So the lesson is if you want to vacuuum dry you need to have a powerful vacuum pump capable of (depending on your meters) 0atm, <46mmHG, or >714mmHG (0mmHG at rest).

Now the idea that incan tribes invented this method by bringing food up to machu pichu to freeze dry doesnt fall in line with the fact you need 0 atmospheres to do so, or maybe im just wrong and machu pichu touches the stratosphere, either way their heads would explode by the time they got to that point.

Ok, so this doesnt really apply to the original topic, i just wanted to confirm how impractical it is to freeze dry without a commercial grade setup.

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