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OfflineHakim0777
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Wrong
    #7028755 - 06/10/07 02:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

What dictates whats right or wrong in the universe?

Is it dependent on human opinion?
Culture?
Is there some universal law that dictates whats right or wrong?
why or why not?

If someone is raised to hate something and he grows thinking its right does that make him wrong? or just wrong by people with conflicting opinions ie racist?

opinions?


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Wrong [Re: Hakim0777]
    #7028916 - 06/10/07 03:10 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

nobody is right and nobody is wrong.  It's when people distinguish the two and look highly at another when you need the other side...

I'm gonna be quoting tao here but When you have 'This' then you must have 'That', good and evil, black and white, them and us...  When they are just so, they need each other.  They sustain the balance that lets the two live and, in that, they are one.  There is no right or wrong.  Everything is right otherwise it wouldn't happen.

For the first questions, I believe it's culture, society, and religions that dictate what's wrong.  The whole idea of morals, in my opinion, is wrong.  This is also my strong opinion :smile:


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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Wrong [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7029063 - 06/10/07 04:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

the context you have described is all social rightness or wrongness.
in that context the formation of rightness and wrongness is in the social network: the people around you become the voices within you.

thankfully this formation continues if your social network changes. (i.e. it is not fixed or baked hard)

eg. you go away to school and enter a broader or more accepting social network - this introduces more voices in your head. some inner conflict but more open potential and better social networking.

rightness and wrongness are resolved internally from these voices inside. I am still trying to get the majority of my inner people to accept eachother.

for some people work - jobs - becomes the most effective social network hook for a more rounded sense of rightness and wrongness.

many spend their entire lives is tiny cosmologies hugely fearing and distrusting people that are outside of their orthodox communities. although this seems sad, the isolation can work for them if they remain undisturbed, as if on another planet.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Wrong [Re: Hakim0777]
    #7029067 - 06/10/07 04:30 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There is no right or wrong, just skillful and unskilful actions that lead to benefit or harm for oneself and others.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Wrong [Re: Sinbad]
    #7029074 - 06/10/07 04:34 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
There is no right or wrong, just skillful and unskilful actions that lead to benefit or harm for oneself and others.



finally you can agree with me that there are no absolutes,
but the struggle to do the right thing is one of the most perplexing issues confronting people,
especially people in regions of military/political/religious conflict.

saying that there is no right and wrong to these people shows lack of insight-compassion.

how is healing to reach these zones of social conflict?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: Wrong [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7029116 - 06/10/07 05:12 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

haha this is why I love the Shroomery, I learn something new everyday.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Wrong [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7029257 - 06/10/07 07:02 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
There is no right or wrong, just skillful and unskilful actions that lead to benefit or harm for oneself and others.



finally you can agree with me that there are no absolutes,
but the struggle to do the right thing is one of the most perplexing issues confronting people,
especially people in regions of military/political/religious conflict.

saying that there is no right and wrong to these people shows lack of insight-compassion.

how is healing to reach these zones of social conflict?




Depends what you mean by absolutes. Relatively, there are no absolutes. But absolutely, there are no relatives. The problem of right and wrong is one of human error. Not understanding first and second noble truths. If we realized the situation, we would never cause others harm, as we would see how it causes ourselves suffering in effect, and there would be no problem in this world. Even the most selfish person can understand this general principle and save themselves a whole lot of suffering. If we want to be really happy though, it is worth thinking of others and holding them dear to oneself. When one applies this, one can see concretely how giving happiness to others makes us happy also.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: Hakim0777]
    #7029347 - 06/10/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

What dictates whats right or wrong in the universe?


The individual does. The Universe has none.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #7029364 - 06/10/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

RGV said: "I am still trying to get the majority of my inner people to accept eachother."

Me too. They need to learn to raise their hands.


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Wrong [Re: Hakim0777]
    #7032565 - 06/11/07 05:48 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Right or wrong varies from society to society.

In some societies, the individual has no choice in certain matters like marriage. If God forbid, he/she insists on marrying someone outside his/her social circle, he/she would be killed.

So what would seem right for the individual, would be looked upon as wrong by the society.


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Hakim0777]
    #7033143 - 06/11/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

basically, 'wrong' is a very primitive concept, because it arose out of the individual perception of 'bad'.
So good = right and bad = wrong.
As said, then, society comes into play and if one wants to participate with a society, these concepts must be true for everyone of them.
So, collecting all the food for oneself in a (starving) society is good for one, but bad for all others, so all others will see the one as bad (wrong), as long as he stays in this society. He even will be seen better if he shares, what primarily may be bad for him, but in reflection makes him good in society, so he is in society again and has all the power of the collective, what makes it good, even for him again :wink:
Easy :smile:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: Wrong [Re: Hakim0777]
    #7034506 - 06/11/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

"There is now in fact, a banquet of data that has spawned a new field of research on the cognitive neuroscience of human social behavior, demonstrating that humans evolved powerful neurological mechanisms to reinforce cooperation, accentuate pro-social behavior, and bond non-related people through a process of social exchange. Jorge Moll and his colleagues, for example, monitoring fMRI brain scans, found that moral emotions activate the amygdala, or emotion module in the brain, indicating that moral behaviors are as much related to moral emotions, as they are to moral reasons. " - Michael Shermer, The Science of Good and Evil


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineFocusHawaii
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Re: Wrong [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7035518 - 06/11/07 09:46 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Since there isn't an absolute morality we can know, we have to construct one based on what categories of reality are "better" than the other. I like the one proposed by Robert Pirsig in his book Lila, althought there are some holes.

Matter
The Individual
Society
Intellect

It's ethical for an individual to consume matter in order to survive, the same way a society needs to survive by surpressing certain individuals who would harm the society. Intellect is the one that's a little more hazy, and the one (according to Pirsig) that the struggle in the world today is taking place, between society. If intellect can survive, then maybe we'll be free of society.

These ideas are pretty interesting, but I can't say I 100 percent endorse them.

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