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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Escapism in prayer
    #6948205 - 05/21/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I was meandering about the sidewalks this afternoon, Monday morning quarterbacking through the occasional crowd of people when I stumbled upon a large window, the purpose of which was defeated with scores of prayers written on little pieces of paper. I stopped and read some for a little while only to find the messages containing nothing more than the same old stale redundant shit that people pray about.

"Lord, please make the world a better place. - Peggy Sue"

"Peggy Sue, my child, do it yourself you lazy piece of shit. - God"

Hell, I used to pray when I thought it was good for something, when I thought something good could come of it. I probably prayed at some time or another for my friends and family to be happy, but I probably still treated them in whatever remotely shitty way I probably did. If I really cared I wouldn't be asking the Heavens to do it for me, I'd do it myself.

Sure I'd also pray for their health and whatnot, but that's not something I could really help much myself - my mom would probably never quit smoking, and my friend won't kick booze and barbiturates until she ends up in a hospital. If my influential energies don't do anything in such close relationships I doubt God's will.

So it seems people use prayer as a form of escapism. By praying, you are somehow doing your part without physically doing your part. You say the words you think the thoughts you feel better, but I don't think a prayer has ever directly bettered a situation in such a manner.

"Well, I prayed for them, there is nothing more I can do."

"They are doing better, my prayer must have worked! Let me make another, this time it'll be a Ferrari for me.."


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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OfflineLion
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6948424 - 05/21/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Prayer is useful if it creates a compassionate mindset. It is irrational, but telling 'someone' the positive things you wish to see take place can have an effect on the way you interact with others. It would be hard to pray every night for change without seriously examining the things in your life you need to change.

I prefer psychedelics because they are more fun and engaging, and you do not really have to take anything on faith.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6948485 - 05/21/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I see what you are saying but I myself believe there is something to prayer if it isn't anything more than self satisfaction well then so what... You seem to be talking about 'christians' who take their lords name in vain everytime they call themselves one. My prayers would go something like this but I can't say I actually use words.

divine love
channel through my existince
let me be a light to all I touch
Offer me guidenence to overcome nicotine addiction
amen

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: Lion]
    #6948500 - 05/21/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I recommend faith+doubt+psychedelics+prayer=...


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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: Adom]
    #6948585 - 05/21/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You seem to be talking about 'christians' who take their lords name in vain everytime they call themselves one.



No, just people who expect the wonders of the cosmos to solve their problems.

I see how praying can be helpful in a non-religious sense, serving as self motivation and reminder. And it may sometimes promote self/surrounding examination, but I suspect this is rarely the case. People have routine prayers that they go through, tacking on whatever else is pertinent at that moment in time. And though it may promote a positive mindset, when one wakes up in the morning, normally, anything but these thoughts are present.

I'm not going to look for statistics but I'll bet most people pray at night as they're going to sleep. There or in church and church is becoming an awful joke.

As children we can get away with dreams like this because we're young, innocent, ignorant of the world. Asking God for peace in the world will bring a share of peace to the world in the child's mind. But how many people, as adults, find themselves praying only when involved in unusually negative circumstances? They're asking for something. And those who get what they were asking for will either become born again or forget about it until they are again in dire need of mystical help. Then you have those who only talk at God angrily when he's somehow ripping them off or treating them undeservedly.

What a bunch of bunk.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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OfflineLion
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6948610 - 05/21/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Faith and doubt seem to be pretty fundamental to this stage of my existence, the latter more dominant but the former more instinctively valid during peak experiences...

I do not pray much unless it feels particularly genuine and harmonious with the flow of life.

...=:flowerchild:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6948621 - 05/21/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I hear you. I guess my prayers ask for guidenence and give thanks, which fit into your bunk..

I don't ask for miracles, I can't speak for others, but I have a strong connection to my prayers.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6948628 - 05/21/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

It appears that you do not experience your human locus as an interpenetration of cosmic universal forces. It appears that you are expressing alienation from wider existence at a fundamental level. That is sad because the most ecstatic joys are a psychic response to transcendental Reality which such scepticism 'shields' people from ever experiencing. I've been able to see life from both perspectives. As Grace Slick used to sing: "Tear down the walls..."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: Adom]
    #6948648 - 05/21/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I guess my prayers ask for guidenence and give thanks, which fit into your bunk..



No :confused:


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6948685 - 05/21/07 07:21 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Giving thanks doesn't fit but I am asking for something. I'm not argueing with your post but attempting, poorly, to bring out the possibility that prayers can be meaningful.

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6948699 - 05/21/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

are you reading the thread? I'm talking about the insincerity that goes into such prayer, the transmission of personal problems upon an unseen, unheard of being. this argument is heavily weighted around Christian prayer, since it is what I have known, and what I am most exposed to in this American city.

I'm not saying all who pray pray in such a manner, but that the majority do. I do not pray, I see no purpose in it myself. I attempt to remain constantly aware of my place in the universe, while the people I'm talking about reflect only as they're passing time while going to sleep, making themselves feel as if they have directly done aspects of the world good by sending a message out into the universe.

I'm talking about sending a message in a bottle out to sea that reads "make somebody love me", "make somebody feel better","make somebody stop doing this to somebody else". It would be so much more effective if you were to actively understand love, pursue it or let it come to you, find out what's wrong with somebody and make them feel better, find out why somebody is doing something to somebody else and prompt them to stop. Rally if you are out of reach, speak out to people at the limit of your reach.

The kind of prayer I speak of is good only in the final moment when all is lost and there is no hope, not when the writer of the message is fully capable of procuring change.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

Edited by elbisivni (05/21/07 07:29 PM)

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6948720 - 05/21/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I got you. Finally.  I don't understand how I got confused rereading this :confused: .. what..

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: Adom]
    #6948840 - 05/21/07 07:47 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

good, I'm glad, my communication skills have been seemingly poor lately, I've got to get on top of that

:confused: is becoming my way to show my sadness and confussion when somebody seems to be misinterpreting my horrid conceptual conveyances lol


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6950046 - 05/22/07 12:27 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes. It's the same thing as watching TV for example. People decide to stop living their lives and having their own experiences and instead of that... just watch TV. Live their lives through their favorite characters. One wants action? Drama? Love? Breaking news? Contradictory discussions? TV has them all... why use your own brain, watch TV and you shall be free :rolleyes:
Same thing with praying. Why actually do something (which of course that implies a certain sacrifice) when one could just pray? And if the prayer doesn't work one can always play the victim and get some attention from the rest of the community which expects that same thing in return, when their God decides not pay attention to their "pain" :lol:.

Our society has a vast and variated program that it's generically called "life simulation". It takes two to make it work and from what I see things are going pretty flourishing in that domain :shrug:

All I'll have to add to that is that we can make things happen by just using our focus and acknowledging our connection to the Universe... only that some people prefer to to connected to the TV :tongue:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6950093 - 05/22/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Prayer can set a path, but it always has to be walked by oneself :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6952513 - 05/22/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You do not know the majority of any group, let alone the billions over the millennia and the nature of their prayer life. This kind of uncritical thinking pretty much colors your entire 'complaint' as it were. The old saying is: "There are no atheists in foxholes," long ago expressed desperate prayer. I have experienced desperate prayer. Perhaps even Jesus experienced desperate prayer when He allegedly spoke the first line of the 22nd Psalm: "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Whether this ever occurred or not, it well expresses an aspect of the human experience that you are judging as "insincere." Such beseeching is neither insincere, nor are you (or anyone else) in a a position to judge it so. It is the heartfelt expression of a 'child' (of God) in the face of the exigencies of existence in which we are mostly helpless. To believe that one is in control of one's life is the greatest illusion. Most people have some form of skill or another, whether a Bruce Lee or Donald Trump, a Hillary Clinton or a Meryl Streep, but in the face of it all, everyone is a helpless child awash in an ocean of existence that 'most' people believe issued from God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6952550 - 05/22/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

claiming that this holds true for the majority was unnecessary and incorrect. let's reduce it to various instances.

I do not ask the sun to shine, I only hope that it does so on a regular basis. I do not ask the sky for rain when the plants in the garden are withering, I take a bucket to the creek and gather water.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

Edited by elbisivni (05/22/07 05:29 PM)

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: Escapism in prayer [Re: elbisivni]
    #6952781 - 05/22/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

prayer properly is a form of magick

magick properly is a form of prayer

i know someone who doesn't have a job and lives off of magick via prayer. magick meaning the intervention of Jesus Christ because that is the belief system this group of people uses.

most people do not put their souls into prayer, it is just pejorative kind of "how do you do, how's the weather, gee those are some nice shoes Bob, yeah, whats up man, well, gotta go...>" nonsense that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface....

however prayer has a therapeutic aspect in synthesizing and bringing conscious what we otherwise brush off and shun because we are too busy thinking in a split manner, and there is the aspect of sustained attentional focus, especially via group, manifesting tangible results in reality.

generally the magician is more familiar with getting things from the universe than the religious follower, but that's just because in modern days Christianity has become a McDonald's.

it was said there was a man once drowning in the water praying for God to save him
a boat appeared but he told them, go on your way God will help me.
a second boat appeared and he again said, go on your way, God will help me.
a third boat came and again he said, go on your way, God will help me.

then he drowned, and said GOD why didn't you help me? And God said to him I sent you 3 giant boats!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (05/22/07 04:53 PM)

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