Really? I read on a much older thread (that I did not feel like reviving) that others had smoked flowers/seeds/leaves. Were they just talking out of their asses? And for those who think nothing good ever comes of Datura: A poster on an entheogenic website, calling himself “Burning_Copal,” had this to say about the deleriant Datura that has caused numerous deaths over the years and is considered by many to be the most dangerous drug in the world (note: previous posts and posters are refered to):
I'll agree, the tropane solanaceae do not have any obvious recreational value, though there may be some people who enjoy the sensations, it is hard to fathom the enjoyment being recreational.
and EB , the quote you had from QB , I'm going to say, your going to find VERY few people even willing to prepare a dosage for a family member who they may be apprenticing, in the western world, liablity is a big issue with these plants, its at the point where if one did wish to learn about the tropane solanaceae , they are most likely going to have to take the road of hard knocks, and hopefully not get knocked off the road, which it is possible to walk, and not get knocked off .
And Tron, It is true that the plant can often dig up very unpleasent things, but the things it digs up are not nessecarily so, when I say they uncover very deeply buried things, these are not always negative, they are rather, the things buried in the mind, that we dont clearly remember, or dont remember at all, but may lead to flashes of things like deja vu or may be aparent in dreams, but not in waking reality. Granted alot of these things can be unpleasent memories ( in many cases probobly the same mental concepts that are the culprits for nightmares ) but this is not always the case, there have been many occasions where a memory of something returned, that at the given time, was something most direly needed to be remembered, in a very posative way. Underlying the harshness of these plants is a true potential to heal, it just has to be approached carefuly, and respectfully, people may beable to get away with redicules dosages of mushrooms, and come away with a minor ' bad trip ' not the case with these. Dosage must be correct for the individual, and something only the individual would know, what may not induce delerium in one, may kill another, the LD50 are relative , especialy in things like this that people react so variably to. I think many of the people who have come to know ( and if they are still interacting, probobly love ) these plants, would have prefered to have some hands on , first hand instruction, but in the western world, this is not feasible, and very unlikely because people would be worried about being sued if the dosage killed the apprentice.
Does that mean its something that should be tossed out of western culture, or that individuals in western culture will find no merit in ? Not at all, its just a near requirement for us now, to take the more dangerous road in learning about the plants. The western worlds concept of ' recreational drug' is not something that fits tropane solanaceae at all.
As time goes by, the diging slowly uncovers less and less unpleasentness, as these things do by in large get resolved if thats your intent in the experience, but at the times that the ' waking nightmares ' occur, it is helpful to retain enough awareness not to become agitated. What I've noticed with each passing year however, is the desire to react to anything , be it posative or negative, in a overblown, or exited fashion, is becoming less and less. May see the most pleasent vision, or the most hideous one, and it just floats by, and is considered for its meaning, not condoned, not condamned it is what it is, and what these plants dig up, are what is needed to be considered, refusing to do so openly and honestly with yourself, is going to result in a very confused mindstate as unless thoes things are resolved, they tend to come up in the dreams in the days following, and in the dreams you have even less control over how you react to things.
Now I'm going to go back to a source that alot of people learned about these plants from, who was widely believed to be a fraud ( by in large I believe he was ) Carlos Castaneda . Fraud or not, he described some things that were acurate, some that were not in regards to this as far as my own experience goes.
That the plant is for ' power ' in a way yes it is, if one is fermilar with the plant and is comfortable with interacting with it, as far as my experience has gone, there is a most certinaly a rush of power shortly following consumption of the sacrament, and then following the narcosis as well, but there IS a narcosis at somepoint between the two, a ' weakness in the middle ' at which time you have even less power then before. This power could be thought of as mental energy, spiritual energy, but a lack of it results in mental lethargy, and physical lethargy as well, this is as best as I can tell the ' narcosis ' that is a inability to resist sleep at some point.
The power when it is experienced at the begining , and the end, as my experience has gone, was a sensation hard to describe, physicaly and mentaly it had a similar effect, it slowed, but keened the movements and actions in the mind and the body, while movement is slowed , what is done with the body / mind at that time, is very keen, very purposeful . You dont exagerate a movement, and you dont exagerate a thought ( or I do not ) as a result alot of energy that would be directed at over reaction to one or another thing, is not at all, and the mind is very quiet. But at the sametime is as if it was dreaming, things are dug up, and tossed infront of you. The reasons I have personaly found this benifical are many , for one being able to recall things that are so deeply buried, allows them to of course be worked with, secondly the ' keening ' allows me more specificly to resolve these then any entheogen I have personaly encountered could aid. Its not only diging up the issue, and presenting it in a way that is not biased by my own concepts of pleasent and unpleasent, its there, if I like it or not, and its telling me what needs to be resolved. At this time, without the mental chatter that we so commonly experience , there is no energy being wasted on that, the body is lethargic but energetic at the sametime, such that its not wasting energy on movements that arent required, and the mind is not doing so with thoughts that are not either, with the purpose in mind for which it was consulted, this allows what ever issue needs to be resolved, to be done so where the individual may not normaly have had enough energy to dig it up / confront it / accept it / and heal it , but then there is the narcosis .
Its during the narcosis that the weakeness occurs, at which time you are no longer conciously aware of the things being dug up, but still are percieving them, at which time they can be quite frightening, as we know nightmares tend to be more so then simply thinking about the samething when awake.
After the narcosis again one wakes up, the power returns in that again the mind is still, and the body more or less as well, the power is less then originaly because at this point, the body is actually injured ( atleast this is my reasoning, again these are my own personal experiences ) and some of that is being used to heal the body, so there is a sense of lethargy that is difficult to shake, but the mind and body remain stilled for a time. However outside human stimuli, people talking, people asking you things about something that has no relevance to your own life , may be quite bothersome.
Now this is a predictable course of events, what occurs within thoes events each time dependant on the conditions, and the purpose of the healing, but it has followed this pattern for quite sometime.
Another thing to consider, if you cant percieve something horribly unpleasent, without becoming agitated, these plants are not going to help. They are going to agitate, I've found for myself that I don't typicaly react to things I see or percive in a emotional fashion untill I can understand what it is I'm actually percieving, then I do my best to keep negative emotions from runing rampent, if one cannot do this, and believes everything they are seeing is ' evil ' and that simply perceving it is a curse or some such, tropanes are going to bury the individual in fear.
I believe I mentioned that I was diagnosed schizophrenic when I was very young, it may be that over the years I became more and more adapt at not reacting to things percieved by the mind in ways that exagerated unpleasentness, and at the sametime, not latching onto things and interpreting them as more posative then they are, something I suppose you have to do with a state of mind in order to remain stable. That may be why I do not have the issues many people do with these plants, I may have learned to keep fear in check even when the mind is essentialy having a waking nightmare.
I guess I do ramble alot about these plants, we all have our friends, we all have our allies, and many of them may seem to others, to be quite unruely, but if one accepts such for long enough period of time, and does so genuinely without fear or malice towards them for the ' hard knocks ' they induce, then there is reason that needs no justification from anyone else, but just the same, the topic comes up , and I guess it could be said I am passionate about the topic, though if one had known me years before, and now years after beginging the relationship with these plants, they would understand that there may be some truely posative potential in them, As far as most people on here have opinons of me, good or ill, thats fine and well, they've known me for only a little over a year, for my family who knows when the change began ( of my own volition, though with Toloache as a guide ) and knows what iniated it , they have said manytimes the change has been dramatic, and quite posative, and family friends as well have made similar comments, though most of them do not know when and why the change occured.
I guess it is a odd situation I'm in when discussion of these things come up, having had such a posative change in my life after beginging the relationship, I of coures feel quite fondly about them, but I am not ignorant to the danger they pose , if prepared or dosed improperly, or consumed with a fearful mindset, or even all thoes aside, I'm quite aware long term ,there are likely physical consequences as we know these plants are quite hard on the body, I'll pay that price, and I'd pay it twice over , or thrice over, because the conditions prior , were a living hell, and now atleast, I'm working towards opening my eyes to life, and being content, peaceful and happy again. Its a work in progress, a windy road, a bumpy road, lots of ups and downs, but for the chance atleast to make the decision to travel this road, rather then just continuing to lay in / die in the ditch I had ended up years back, its well worth it.
I would say, it would be a wonderful thing if more people had such a posative interaction, but most dont typicaly, its not something I take pride in , it simply was the right plant, at the right time, to encourage me to change my life, and I did so, and continue to do so, and weither people call this the ' devils weed ' really dosent matter too much to myself, but again Aha! as Castaneda wrote, he was told she is like a woman, and yes strange as it may seem, I've found myself defending these plants and what ever the allie is present in them, like I would a woman. Even relationships with plants have their quirks.
Edited by Ikal (05/06/07 12:12 PM)
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