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 AmericaOnLSD
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 Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? 
#6877438 - 05/05/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Since one of the biggest obstacles to "enlightenment" is the ego, and the ego is not yet developed in a young child, does that mean that young children are naturally in higher states of consciousness similar to "enlightened" adults?
Also, wouldn't other animals such as monkeys or even pets be naturally in an "enlightened" state given that they do not have an ego like humans do?
AOLSD
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 budmanman
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6877445 - 05/05/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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were u enlightened when you were a kid?
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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6877490 - 05/05/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness?
NO!
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Grok
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6877516 - 05/05/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Kids have a less-conditioned perspective and their imaginations and curiosity is much less downtrodden than someone of older age who's just accepted that 'this is just the way it is'. IMO a lot of kids are in a higher state of awareness than most people.
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vigilant_mind
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: Grok]
#6877554 - 05/05/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Children's brains are not as developed as that of adult's, so I would say no in regards to brain physiology. However, children do not have as much of an entrenched ego as an adult does, thereby justifying Confucius' words: "One who doesn't know, doesn't doubt." Without an underlying standard system to weigh things against, children take things more at face value, and are more prone to blind faith.
So, no, I do not think that children are in higher states of consciousness. They are not developed yet. This is why we call children "children."
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Silversoul
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6877647 - 05/05/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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It is a common mistake to think of the pre-egoic state as enlightened, when in fact it is the trans-egoic state that is to be sought. The ego is not something that is bad in itself. It is only bad when you are confined by it. But it is also a teacher that has many lessons for us.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6877657 - 05/05/07 07:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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They have just not been domesticated yet...that is all.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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elbisivni
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6877898 - 05/05/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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There are psychologists who spend their time studying the 'artwork' of children. Being unconditioned as to what is pleasurable, right, stylish, etc., their imagery reflects qualities of purity and individualism.
I think children are much more open, on average, to the wonders of the universe than adults. It is a magnificent world to a child, adults learn the art of taking things for granted. However, this quality may be attributed to ignorance 
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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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MushroomTrip
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 Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: elbisivni]
#6877906 - 05/05/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Children are cool and very smart, much more then we think
Also they have an instinct that makes them know stuff that when we grow we struggle to get back
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6877944 - 05/05/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think that it is difficult to discuss the consciousness of young children in general terms. There is a great deal of variability among children, just as there is among adults.
The innocence we tend to idealize is not necessarily a preferable state to the "jaded" consciousness of an adult. Much of what we term innocence is actually ignorance, and an undeveloped conceptual framework for experiences. This may make children more "open" to input, but it also makes it difficult for them to understand the input.
Ideally, children would be treated as though they were small people who were new to this planet, rather than either an extension of their parents' egos, or annoying luggage that must be carted from place to place and fed regularly.
In my experience, children who are treated with respect and attention from the start are very aware, very loving, and very capable of developing a framework for their awareness.
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elbisivni
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6877945 - 05/05/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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children are annoying and bothersome! but children have natural abilities many of us are trying to reattain.
I think we attach a lot of importance to our own childhoods because we are aware of the different state of consciousness we exhibited at the time, and we remember scattered thoughts, memories, experiences, attached emotions, questions, dreams, etc. Memories are very interesting enigmatic things..
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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: elbisivni]
#6878063 - 05/05/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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veritas is closest
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onlynow
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
#6878791 - 05/06/07 12:19 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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IMO children are more receptive to higher states of consciousness, although they are not aware of it. i know that when i was a kid i experienced more consciousness. recurring lucid dreams, loads of energy and possibilities. it seems to me that children experience more consciousness, but are not as aware. and adults seem more aware and less conscious.
adult's certainly have more capacity for higher states of consciousness, but that capacity is rarely experienced due to conditioning and other external factors. it actually looks as though most adults become less conscious as they age. since children are not boxed in like adult's they are able to reach out to their capacity and experience more consciousness. so i would conclude that the average adult is not in a "higher state" of consciousness than an child. it is just that the evolution of the adult's consciousness has reversed and has turned into the evolution of ignorance 
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: onlynow]
#6879585 - 05/06/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree with Silversoul. To be enlightenend, you must go through the journey to enlightenment, to transcend the problems of life. Children haven't done that. It's the pre/trans thing Ken Wilber talks about. Much like psychotics and mystics. "Psychotics are drowning in the same thing mystics swim in". Pre/trans.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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AmericaOnLSD
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: jonathanseagull]
#6880159 - 05/06/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I just realized, based on the responses to this topic so far, that I may be misusing or even misunderstanding certain terms.
Is "enlightenment" = "Being in a higher state of consciousness"? If not, what is the difference? And is "enlightenment" an unchanging absolute such that one is either enlightened or not, or are there varying degrees?
I tend to think of "higher states of consciousness" as meaning that the mind is not tied up in service to the ego, and is therefore free to concentrate on the here and now. Let's say an unenlightened person (such as myself) is walking down the street. Everything he sees he will make some ego-based judgment of. He may think "Gee, look at the neighbor's yard, it hasn't been cut in a week! They are such slobs!". Or he may see that another neighbor just bought a brand new SUV, and think "Gee, I had better buy one too or else people will think I'm inferior". If he listens to the news, he will interpret each item as it relates to his ego "See, another corrupt Democrat/Republican/etc., just what I thought, I'm glad I'm for the other party". He will judge everything he hears, even if subconsciously, thinking either positive things ("well, its about time people woke up and realize that drugs aren't bad") or negative things ("bunch of dope fiends, the world is going to hell in a handbasket fast!").
Presumably, someone who is in a higher state of consciousness (enlightened?) will not see things this way. While walking down the street he will notice the lawn and the car but will not judge them as good or bad. Likewise upon hearing the news - he will understand the implications of the news he hears but he will not see it in terms of his ego.
That's why I was thinking a small child might be considered "enlightened", since the small child is likely to observe without judging or having his ego get involved. Or does "enlightenment" imply a conscious understanding and willful quieting of the ego (vs. the ego naturally being quiet on its own)?
AOLSD
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leery11
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: jonathanseagull]
#6880160 - 05/06/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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ego is just one boundary line in the cookbook for enlightenment
if you ask a Buddhist or a Hindu or probably most spiritual people they will tell you animals do not have the causes and conditions available to them to become enlightened.
this does not mean that they are not in some ways more free than humans, for instance if a dog is clearly loved very dearly by its owners who are enthusiastic energetic people, they dog may spend a large amount of time in states of joy and pleasure and get all the exercise necessary to live a long and happy life, whereas many humans are not even close to capable to behaving like dogs....
i witnessed this first hand. no one would play with me, they were zombied out on dawson's creek, and my heart and my fire were in need of reciprocation
but the dog did
we shared it completely
FLOMP my hands on the ground JUMP back in fear, LUNGE forward to meet me in a playful laughing reciproaction FLOCK running around the room
people remarking he should calm down
i was more or less a dog for a bit, it was very interesting, they will DANCE with your intentions
children will too
in this way, children are close to liberation. i believe children have much cleaner prana as they have just come from source and are not yet really immersed in a society with bad diet and bad habits and bad posture and bad ideas.... but I believe in time fast food and the education system and the parents will take a toll on the exuberance of youth and flatten them out to a more acceptable hue of grey
this is just in worst case scenario
what children do have is a joyful free spirited raw nature, unconcerned with future or past, but what they don't have necessarily is the awareness necessary to mitigate the strong ID cravings for sensory pleasures that have nothing at all to do with the higher chakras.
lest ye be converted as children you will not see the Kingdom.
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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redgreenvines
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: leery11]
#6880204 - 05/06/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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even higher is a misnotion
the altered states are generally more richly layered sensory
or more layered and interwoven conceptually.
children and adults alike go through the wringer every day and night.
some continuity is lacking between dream states and waking states and this continuity is more lacking in adults and well normalized members of society than among children on the whole.
this opinion I have is from my own observations and I am not aware of statistical testing to back it up.
this might make me more of a mystic than a scientist, which I would abhor.
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psyka
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#6881148 - 05/06/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Buddha means "an Awakened One" (which there are several), not the enlightened one. Feeling awakened is like waking up from a deep slumber. Your head feels crystal clear and light. Your imagination becomes infinitely expanded in all directions and your behavior comes as naturally as a child's... which I have felt before, so I personally know it is a genuine mental state.
However, I wouldn't suggest children have a higher consciousness, merely a less non-judgmental one. As children age, they become more prone to new emotions and because we aren't taught how to deal with the "I like, I dislike" mind, we form a defense mechanism to reality - the ego. Children merely do what is natural.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
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johnuk
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Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#7373491 - 09/06/07 03:40 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AmericaOnLSD said:
Since one of the biggest obstacles to "enlightenment" is the ego, and the ego is not yet developed in a young child, does that mean that young children are naturally in higher states of consciousness similar to "enlightened" adults?
AOLSD
I think I kind of understand what you're getting at.
In my teens, I almost forgot what it was like to be a child. More recently, I've been putting effort into opening myself to experiences.
I don't believe in bad trips and just try to let it happen even if it's scaring me and feels horrible. I started wondering how strange it'd be if we could entirely change our tastes. Having favourite colors, tastes, musical styles is only an example of our mechanical limitations, of our predisposed neural layouts. I'm teaching mine to ignore what it thinks is the universal best, because I'm pleased to have some part of it that I was either given or have developed that can recognise the mistake the rest of it is making in imposing such blind favouritism.
I would agree with another post above that perhaps enlightened is better used to describe a post-ego state. I'd say kids are more open, whereas I'd perhaps reserve enlightened for an adult who's both childlike open to life but also understands more of it.
I think what's special about kids is that their brains are bare slates to write on. Scientifically, kids even have special silent & mirror neurons waiting to absorb things like language and motor skills. If these aren't taught what to do early in life, they don't seem to be capable of learning later. Once they're occupied with something, new ones don't grow and they aren't easily altered. That's part of the reason why kids can learn a language in years where adults spend years messing around with phrase books.
Kids have blank memories and so every experience they have is considered worthy of memory space because it's new and novel. They also seem to link some memories together in a less coherent manner than adults. I remember as a kid having some strange memories and feelings linked together that didn't seem to make much sense - I don't know if that's common or if it's just me & some others. It's almost impossible to describe what those feelings where - which means it's part of the experience of life we're furthest from understanding.
It would be kind of like when you'd go to the doctor as a kid and wouldn't know what was happening, only that someone was going to do something out of your control to you and it was probably going to be painful. For me, that would stir up strange 60s like feelings of institutions, ideas on science and the dogma of their absolute certainty. And I'd get that for a lot of things.
But to describe it as fear, anger, love or hate... I'm not sure those fit. In fact, those are probably some condensed or evolved form of whatever they were.
It wasn't until I tried psilocybe mushrooms that I realised they create an effect that's a bit like being a kid again. Because the experience of the world around me becomes distorted, my brain seems to think things I've seen before are new and worth remembering, because they've changed in the distortion. Seemingly random memories fire when they wouldn't normally and become tied to experiences that they normally wouldn't be associated with by a less experienced adult - in the Hendrix sense of the word. The feeling reminds me of some of the indescribably strange things I'd think of when I was younger.
I've started trying to increase the depth of my experiences in life by trying to notice all the sensory aspects of things I'm in contact with, not just one or two. So I'll feel things, smell them, taste them even if it's stuff like soil. When my memories start cascading, I find it creates a really nice, thicker, deeper appreciation of how things flow together and exist. I'm also privilidged with understanding quite a lot of science, which makes conceptualising thoughts about things like energy, mass, probabilities and how things are flowing really quite a powerful experience that I think other scientists are missing out on by only reading texts.
I read some interesting ideas in Huxley's 'Island' just recently, the first was a poem;
All things, to all things perfectly indifferent,
Perfectly work together for a being good more than good,
More timeless in it's transience,
More endless in it's dwindling,
Than god there in heaven
There was a also a paragraph about how a being that does good is not necessarily a Good Being. That to find out who we are we need to forget who we think we are and emphasis on how damaging it is to try and cover up what we feel - I suppose a more tactile example of that being trying to resist an overpowering experience with psilocybe or any other psychotropic.
I now have a problem identifying myself with a name and using the words you and I, because I see them as a limit on what this experience is. 'I' implies a static character.
The only problem with all this is that I'm also starting to wonder if I might be going insane. In the eyes of normality, probably. For me, I'm not sure how someone who's never even come close to experiencing what I have and with little to no understanding of the universe (in both a social and scientific sense) can pass knowledgeable judgement on me.
Lots of love...
Edited by johnuk (09/06/07 03:50 AM)
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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 Re: Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness? [Re: AmericaOnLSD]
#7373500 - 09/06/07 04:04 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Are Young Children in "Higher States" of Consciousness?
YES!
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