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fireworks_god
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Discerning Reality From Imagination
#6843320 - 04/27/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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How do we do it? How can we discern that our sense of what is occuring in this moment, on a conceptual level, is the reality of the matter, or simply our imagination, what we want it to be, perhaps?
I'm thinking that far too often we are simply hopeful. In a reality devoid of any sense of what it is, here we are, trying to sense what it is.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843378 - 04/27/07 10:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well that "wishing it to be so" part can be very tricky. Sometimes we think that we're being to grasp reality from fiction and then bam, another thought occurs: wait, could it be creating all that? Could this only be the projection of my desires? Then what? But what if it's the actual reality which is being felt in such a deep manner that we might think it's our imagination? These two look a like more then a lot. When I am in such a situation, I hope to be able to have a little more patience (which usually I lack of) and take some time to cool off. Because I'm thinking that, if it something is indeed for real, it won't change it's characteristics. But I can change my perception. Of course, this doesn't always work because, yes, because I didn't managed to stop being inpatient. For me it an endless struggle which I know I'll have a lot to deal with until I'll be able to hold my emotions. But when I find the necessary patience, the things turn out as they should and then I can make the distinction between the projection of my own mind and the reality. Now, there's also intuition . But there's no way I could find the right words to define it's process, because it just happens
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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druglord
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843401 - 04/27/07 10:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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We can't do it. Ontological uncertainty (uncertainty about what is) will always exist. When you consider the realness of hallucinations or dreams, it makes a person think that ordinary waking reality could also be an illusion.
"Was I before a man who dreamt about being a butterfly, or am I now a butterfly who dreams about being a man?" -Taoist master Chuang Tzu
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Silversoul
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843407 - 04/27/07 10:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Rather than trying to be absolutely certain that I know what reality is, I like Robert Anton Wilson's idea of "reality tunnels." That is, just try on different lenses through which to view reality, and see what they do for you.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6843451 - 04/27/07 11:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: But what if it's the actual reality which is being felt in such a deep manner that we might think it's our imagination? These two look a like more then a lot.
Yep. That's why I'm interested in being able to make the distinction... perhaps it begs the question as to whether or not our imagination is creating reality. I'm always inclined to think that it is not, beyond its influence on the manner in which we interact with reality, indirectly influencing the course of reality. But is our sense in this moment, which could be imagination, in that moment the reality of the matter?
I realize I'm asking the same thing again. Its intriguing because it directly involves the nature of reality and our experience. Perhaps through investigation we can learn more regarding this mystery.
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When I am in such a situation, I hope to be able to have a little more patience (which usually I lack of) and take some time to cool off. Because I'm thinking that, if it something is indeed for real, it won't change it's characteristics. But I can change my perception.
Perfect.
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Of course, this doesn't always work because, yes, because I didn't managed to stop being inpatient.
Yep. I know the feeling of losing patience and ending something that likely existed until that moment, in an attempt to attain that something. Very clumsy, unskillful manner of interacting with reality - embarassing, even.
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But when I find the necessary patience, the things turn out as they should and then I can make the distinction between the projection of my own mind and the reality.
I think something that complexifies this whole thing is the thought of potential, possibilities. Reflections on the quantam world. Is the projection of our own mind simply our choice in which possibillities we'd like to see manifested? The real question seems to be the manner in which we decide to act, in order to select those possibillities as reality.
Yet, not everything is possible in this moment, or in ones yet to unfold. Perhaps this is where the question of disccerning between reality and imagination comes into play.
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Now, there's also intuition . But there's no way I could find the right words to define it's process, because it just happens
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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spud
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843462 - 04/27/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm quite busy at the moment, but Berkeley does a decent job providing us with a methodology for distinction in his Treatise concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge
I'll be free later, I'll try to dig up a direct quote then.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843490 - 04/27/07 11:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yep. That's why I'm interested in being able to make the distinction... perhaps it begs the question as to whether or not our imagination is creating reality. I'm always inclined to think that it is not, beyond its influence on the manner in which we interact with reality, indirectly influencing the course of reality. But is our sense in this moment, which could be imagination, in that moment the reality of the matter?
I realize I'm asking the same thing again. Its intriguing because it directly involves the nature of reality and our experience. Perhaps through investigation we can learn more regarding this mystery.
OK, here is my personal belief, based of what I really feel but which has also been certified a considerable amount of times. Yes, our mind can create/influence reality. If we could move a glass of water with our hand, I'm inclined to suspect that out thought can also "move", create reality. I mean. after all, it is our mind in the first place, the one which creates the impulse to our hand to move and lift the damn glass of water . This statement also relates to intuition.
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Yep. I know the feeling of losing patience and ending something that likely existed until that moment, in an attempt to attain that something. Very clumsy, unskillful manner of interacting with reality - embarassing, even.
Then we are talking about the same thing
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Yet, not everything is possible in this moment, or in ones yet to unfold. Perhaps this is where the question of disccerning between reality and imagination comes into play.
On the particular note that imagination always played an important role in our latter discoveries
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Flop Johnson
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843491 - 04/27/07 11:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I wonder about this as well, because you never really have a "true" perception of reality, because everything you experience is filtered through your brain and subject to a wide variety of interpretations. Your eyes do not actually work like a camera, they process light and your brain creates the picture. This is part of the reason hallucinations are possible because your brain's interpretation of reality is the end all be all for your personal understanding of the world.
Which brings me back to the original question, discerning reality from imagination. I don't think you can ever honestly say that you do. This brings up a lot of other questions in my head haha, hold on ill get back to you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: spud]
#6843525 - 04/27/07 11:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
spud said: I'm quite busy at the moment, but Berkeley does a decent job providing us with a methodology for distinction in his Treatise concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge
I'll be free later, I'll try to dig up a direct quote then.
Yes, this is exactly what I need, a proposal on something to venture into reading. I really need to pay off the library and my credit card. Looking forward to a direct quote.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6843547 - 04/27/07 11:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: OK, here is my personal belief, based of what I really feel but which has also been certified a considerable amount of times. Yes, our mind can create/influence reality. If we could move a glass of water with our hand, I'm inclined to suspect that out thought can also "move", create reality. I mean. after all, it is our mind in the first place, the one which creates the impulse to our hand to move and lift the damn glass of water . This statement also relates to intuition.
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Then we are talking about the same thing
Those moments serve as a great lesson in learning about ourselves, though, even if we still can't get over how dumb we were in that moment.
Quote:
On the particular note that imagination always played an important role in our latter discoveries
I'm discovering that oreos with strawberry milkshake-flavored creme are fucking delicious.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Mushmonkey
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843583 - 04/27/07 11:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's a tricky question, whether reality is real or some kind of illusion / delusion / dream, so.. I'll skirt that because I think spud'll be back with a good quote, and it doesn't directly pertain to what I'm seeing as your question anyway.
If you're talking about seeing things as they ARE, vs. seeing them as you WANT them to be, that's a much more simple dilemma. If you attack the situation methodically, and yourself.. all you need to recognize is that which you would WANT to be, and, seperately, things which support one reality or another. Of course, if you're talking about physical reality or social interactions, it's not clear -- but reality itself you can usually divine in that manner quickly, while interactions between people just take a bit longer due to often a lack of sufficient information.. but it's not terribly hard to make large leaps if that's what you're dealing with, I've collected countless "told you so's" in that particular arena over the past several years
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: Mushmonkey]
#6843598 - 04/28/07 12:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
all you need to recognize is that which you would WANT to be, and, seperately, things which support one reality or another.
Intention IS a powerful tool
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: Mushmonkey]
#6843608 - 04/28/07 12:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushmonkey said: all you need to recognize is that which you would WANT to be, and, seperately, things which support one reality or another.
Trust me, I realize this. That's what I'm questioning, who do I want to be?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843618 - 04/28/07 12:08 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
How do we do it? How can we discern that our sense of what is occuring in this moment, on a conceptual level, is the reality of the matter, or simply our imagination, what we want it to be, perhaps?
I always keep a hat pin handy. It is not 100%, but generally sticking yourself tends to hurt more in reality than in a dream or hallucination.
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fireworks_god
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I directly stated that I was referring to it occuring on a conceptual level - not a question of one's direct perception. I know the path to being aware of the nature of reality as it pertains to the perceptions being gathered by our sensory devices. I'm questioning how we know that our interpretation of that situation within reality is accurate, and this isn't as simple as simply becoming more aware of one's perceptions, although that is still, by far, the best approach to have. As MT stated, patience helps. Our perceptions of reality on a conceptual level might change, but reality in that regard doesn't. We simply need to be patient, impartial observers.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843826 - 04/28/07 01:05 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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If a methodology or an interpretation cannot be clearly described or tested, then little credence should be given to it.
Perhaps going a little far afield, but the poker world is rife with superstition and hunches and bass-ackwards thinking, which when clearly looked at does not hold up.
Here is an example of a popular cliche, "When on a 'rush', one should play weaker hands and more aggressively."
A rush being a series of winning hands. A rush cannot be specifically delineated as to how many hands one must first win, nor the size of the win, nor the gap between winning hands and losing hands. It is ALWAYS backward looking.
When this strategy of 'playing a rush' fails, a believer will state the following, "Well, the rush was obviously over."
My point being when new 'rules' have to be continuouly added to make one's observation fit, then know your interpration is probably faulty.
This is clearly evidenced in such nonsensical observations of reality such as the 'Law of Attraction'. Note how quickly sub-clauses and excuses must be added to make it 'work'.
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fireworks_god
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I agree with your post. The notion regarding playing while on a rush seems like a ridiculuous one. I'm not too certain, however, as to what statement or idea of mine your post is responding to.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Discerning Reality From Imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
#6843978 - 04/28/07 01:49 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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To many people it is an interpretation of reality they believe in and I find to be pure imagination (as per your title). It doesn't matter whether it is religion, psychedelics, poker or other - one's interpretation should be congruous, definable and testable.
That is my point.
McKenna made many hypotheses on reality that are regularly regurgitated here yet fail the test. Of course, the funny part is many proponents discount religion yet glom onto these equally improbable myths.
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fireworks_god
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All right, I get the context in which your comments were placed now. I still agree.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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