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 Epigallo
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 Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? 
#6829720 - 04/24/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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What potential do you see in the next 5-10 years for the effect of designer drugs on the basic factors you perceive as the human condition?
Keep in mind areas such as suffering, attitude, communication, pain, intelligence, etc. What about current problems with drugs such as addiction, tolerance, inconsistent effects, expense, side effects, unknown effects of synergies, etc.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831033 - 04/25/07 08:05 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I see no potential, as I have no understanding of or relationship with designer drugs. 
What do you see?
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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 blewmeanie
 
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6831081 - 04/25/07 08:20 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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allot of promising research going on right now
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fireworks_god
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: blewmeanie]
#6831130 - 04/25/07 08:36 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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So what is the main thrust, that using these drugs will change these basic factors for us?
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6831151 - 04/25/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't know, obviously there must be states of consciousness beyond anything we can imagine, even with our current psychedelics. Even if we want to live in the states produced by what is available now, there tend to be problems with the substances; we gain tolerance quickly with most psychedelics, they trigger fight or flight responses, produce body loads, etc.
I see no reason why as human knowledge progresses we can't have drugs designed to keep us in a state of love or ecstasy. Some people might think that is just too "rich", but then could our attitude also be modified biochemically to make us want to live with richer sensations and thoughts?
It seems to be a fact that if any stimulus is repeated on a system, the system seems to adjust to make the stimulus part of the system (tolerance develops). So it seems unlikely that one chemical can be continuously delivered to our brains to produce the desired effect. Precision of effect seems to be a problem, as everyone has a different physiology, and individuals constantly change as well. I'm leaning towards the notion that if human suffering can be greatly reduced biochemically, an artificial intelligence will be needed to map the human mind and body in extroardinary detail and design new substances as psycho-physiological changes occur to sustain a certain aspect of experience.
Ugh this is too complicated, makes my head hurt 
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fireworks_god
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831175 - 04/25/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradleycny said:
I see no reason why as human knowledge progresses we can't have drugs designed to keep us in a state of love or ecstasy.
Perhaps, but would the state of being have any meaning? Would it be with awareness, with understanding? I wouldn't mind being continuously happy, yet I don't want to be some moron walking around with a stupid grin on one's face. I realize that this might not necessarily be the case, but the point is that we understand and appreciate love for what it is because of the circumstance in which it arrives.
I mean, we already use all sorts of chemicals in an attempt to assist people with their mental state. From my general understanding, it doesn't seem to be the most effective approach - I know a lot of people here have said that on here. The thought that simply changing chemicals will change a state of mind is not an entirely substansial one.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6831202 - 04/25/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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So what happens to free will? What about all the stuff that gives us the experience of being human? Drugs don't have to replace these things, they can enhance them. Think how psychedelics can let us see the different stages of evolution within us. Nootropics are a class of drugs which shows promising results for increasing symbolic intelligence. As long as drugs are designed to give us an experience of being more alive, with more "meaning", and greater control over our minds, I see no problem with the chemical route.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831285 - 04/25/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradleycny said:
So what happens to free will? What about all the stuff that gives us the experience of being human? Drugs don't have to replace these things, they can enhance them.
Thoughts can enhance them as well. Conscious thinking seems far more effective in facilitating a change within oneself than simple alteration of one's brain chemistry. Smoke marijuana and ten different people will have ten different emotional states and experiences. What could be a profoundly mystical experience for one on acid could be some sort of self-destructive hell for another.
Quote:
As long as drugs are designed to give us an experience of being more alive, with more "meaning", and greater control over our minds, I see no problem with the chemical route.
Is understanding and knowledge transferred through introduction of a new chemical into the brain? Sure, a certain chemical may help facilitate a certain emotional state of being, yet even the emotional state that it triggers is not defined by that chemical.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6831314 - 04/25/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thoughts can enhance them as well. Conscious thinking seems far more effective in facilitating a change within oneself than simple alteration of one's brain chemistry. Smoke marijuana and ten different people will have ten different emotional states and experiences. What could be a profoundly mystical experience for one on acid could be some sort of self-destructive hell for another.
Could a chemical, or set of chemicals not exist which has the effect of making us more conscious of our thoughts? Marijuana sort of does this, but it also tends to cause short term memory loss, inability to concentrate, and possibly other undesirable factors. The fact that something is great for one while bad for another is a good impetus for actively designing, rather than passively taking what is there.
Sure, a certain chemical may help facilitate a certain emotional state of being, yet even the emotional state that it triggers is not defined by that chemical.
True for psychedelics, but less true for drugs which act mostly on the emotional centers of the brain. High dose alcohol will probably make you aggressive. Ecstasy will make you loving. I admit is is a problem achieving specific effects. In areas of the mind such as decision making, we of course don't want total definition but simply more awareness, and thus more freedom.
Is understanding and knowledge transferred through introduction of a new chemical into the brain?
Sometimes. 
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gluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831388 - 04/25/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Two reasons why I think science should not seek a drug that could realize the hedonistic imperative:
1) If you want to expand your conciousness, there is no drug out there that you need to take. Drugs can lead to experiences which in turn expand your conciousness, but the bottom line is that if your mind isn't ready to interpret these experiences they become nightmares instead of conciousness expanding. The realization that all the answers are within your grasp at all moments is the ultimate experience, and requires no drugs.
2) There is no way that a drug could be invented that makes you happy all of the time because the nature of happiness is that it exists in opposition to suffering. Heroin makes people very very happy until they come off of it whent they experience suffering, and after a certain point the happiness that came with those first highs gets dulled and it just becomes an addiction.
I think even if there were a magic drug that made you feel "up" without any "down," it would actually end up driving you crazy. I think if you felt the same all the time you would lose your mind. We're not designed to be that way and I think that a life without any dynamic ups and downs would be very unhealthy and unpleasant.
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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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blewmeanie
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
#6831443 - 04/25/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Was'nt there a ren and stimpy about that?
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Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
#6831480 - 04/25/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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1) If you want to expand your conciousness, there is no drug out there that you need to take. Drugs can lead to experiences which in turn expand your conciousness, but the bottom line is that if your mind isn't ready to interpret these experiences they become nightmares instead of conciousness expanding. The realization that all the answers are within your grasp at all moments is the ultimate experience, and requires no drugs.
So you see no use for psychedelics?
2) There is no way that a drug could be invented that makes you happy all of the time because the nature of happiness is that it exists in opposition to suffering.
Hot only exists in opposition to cold, but fire is always hot...
Heroin makes people very very happy until they come off of it whent they experience suffering, and after a certain point the happiness that came with those first highs gets dulled and it just becomes an addiction.
This has been touched on, but you are making an extreme generalization. Of course, a system will adjust to a constant stimuli as to incorporate the stimuli into the system. But this can be beneficial. Consider certain dietary changes; when the body adjusts, it is something very far from addiction. And don't think the diet is simply "natural", we are living longer than we used to with a poorer lifestyle.
I think even if there were a magic drug that made you feel "up" without any "down," it would actually end up driving you crazy. I think if you felt the same all the time you would lose your mind. We're not designed to be that way and I think that a life without any dynamic ups and downs would be very unhealthy and unpleasant.
Why not surf the highs and lows of waves of bliss?
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euphoricpoison
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 Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831552 - 04/25/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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check your PMs
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gluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831635 - 04/25/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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So you see no use for psychedelics?
On the contrary I find them to be extremely valuable because they make you experience yourself on a level that you don't usually. But the leave the work up to your conciousness. If you fight the experience, it becomes scary. If you only take psychedilcs to see trippy visuals, that is all you will experience. But if you use your conciousness to fully enter the trip than it is a deepening experience. I often find it is the days after the trip that are my favorite, when I reflect on what I learn and feel at peace.
Hot only exists in opposition to cold, but fire is always hot...
On the cotrary. If all the universe were fire, it wouldn't be hot. Fire is not hot if you live on the surface of the sun. But if you spend time on the sun and then in the cold vacuum of space you are aware of the difference.
This has been touched on, but you are making an extreme generalization. Of course, a system will adjust to a constant stimuli as to incorporate the stimuli into the system. But this can be beneficial. Consider certain dietary changes; when the body adjusts, it is something very far from addiction. And don't think the diet is simply "natural", we are living longer than we used to with a poorer lifestyle.
I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that heroin, a drug known for producing deep pleasure, is linked very closely to extreme suffering. This is no coincidence. Joy and suffering spring from the same well. You can't have one without the other. I challenge you to prove that you can have pleasure without pain.
Why not surf the highs and lows of waves of bliss?
Please define or describe the difference between a high and a low.
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
#6831678 - 04/25/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that heroin, a drug known for producing deep pleasure, is linked very closely to extreme suffering. This is no coincidence. Joy and suffering spring from the same well. You can't have one without the other. I challenge you to prove that you can have pleasure without pain.
You argument seems to be that in any individual, an equal amount of pain is experienced for any amount of pleasure. If you think this is true, you can go happily give yourself third degree burns with the assurance that they will have a pleasurable counterpart later on. If you don't think so, then it makes sense to wire your body and mind for pleasure.
To understand and be grateful for a lifetime of pleasure, one only needs one experience of pain for comparison.
Edited by bradleycny (04/25/07 11:07 AM)
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Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831766 - 04/25/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Please define or describe the difference between a high and a low.
More desirable and less desirable.
On the cotrary. If all the universe were fire, it wouldn't be hot. Fire is not hot if you live on the surface of the sun. But if you spend time on the sun and then in the cold vacuum of space you are aware of the difference.
For us on earth, fire is always hot. Green is only green in contrast to other colors, but grass is usually green. The polar nature of the universe doesn't mean that both polarities must exist within one locale.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831853 - 04/25/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradleycny said:
The polar nature of the universe doesn't mean that both polarities must exist within one locale.
Interesting. 
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6831864 - 04/25/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regarding your main topic, why the hell not? We've always evolved most as a species when we've entered into a symbiotic relationship with other life, chemicals, etc. We could really further ourselves and become more aware of the nature of our mind in the process. 
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Epigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6831948 - 04/25/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right, I was trying to get at exactly what, and how. It does seem a little futile for me to discuss however, considering how little I know about neuroscience.
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psyka
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
#6833373 - 04/25/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Drugs by themselves offer nothing but the potential to perpetuate acts that keep us in the pool of suffering. It is the person who uses drugs that holds the potential to gain incite from alternative perspectives.
Some people use psychedelics to see things and do not gain anything from it... I cannot understand that at all... Like, whats up with people jumping off of bridges under the influence of shrooms?
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
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