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OfflineBrainChemicals
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 764
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
The existence of Free Will is far from certain
    #6804451 - 04/18/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I have been interested in it a long time. I recently began reading the book "The Illusion of the Conscious Will."

Although we feel like we are willing our actions, where does that decision come from? Factors, an amount of variables so huge, make our decisions- there is no "soul" making a decision that is free from millions of different things causing that choice. We are just one huge, HUGE chain of causation. Our thoughts, or decisions, everything was caused by something else.

This of course removes the responsibility from killers, rapists, and so on- which could be bad- but it really technically isn't "their" fault... They should obviously still be kept away from society, though. This world will continue to wind down a path of cause and effect. There is only one physically possible future.

When we die we will most likely live trillions and millions of other brains, for all eternity. We have probably lived millions and trillions of lives before this. There is no connection between our millions of lives, because all that exists is the brain... no soul.

This is one of the things I think I think, but I'm not sure. What else do you think? Do you know what I mean?


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6804457 - 04/18/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Not only is the existence of free will uncertain, it's completely absurd. In order for free will to exist one would have to admit that there is no causation and that therefore existence is completely random.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804473 - 04/18/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

So are you suggesting we're not responsible for any of our actions & choices?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBrainChemicals
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 764
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6804484 - 04/18/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Basically. There is no "we." We are just automated machines with this illusion that is a consciousness.


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist


Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6804486 - 04/18/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I definitely agree. People do not wake up one day and choose to be rapists or choose to be child molesters, it happens as the result of general character dispositions which are themselves determined by genes and environment.

I think we tend to recognize this in our everyday practices. We evaluate good and bad employees, or good or bad people based on their past behavior, because we tend think that indicates something about their future behavior. If free will were present there would be no reason to think that.

If free will was present a person's actions would be absolutely random. They could change at any time, they could choose to be a new person the next day--thus judging a person by their past behavior would be prejudice.

For example, so long as Mr. Smith acted like a good upstanding citizen starting March 14 2007, I would have to ignore the fact that on April 10 2001, and July 9 1998 Mr. Smith was convicted of child molestation while considering his application for a position as a preschool teacher. So long as he had stronger credentials, and according to present behavior seemed a very honest man, I would have to presume he chose to change and can now be trusted around children just as much as the average Joe.

Nobody in their right mind will actually do this. Nobody would hire a convicted child molester to be a school teacher or baby sitter no matter their present behavior or qualifications-because nobody really believes in free will. We know Mr. Smiths disposition was the result of complex psychological causes, and we thus know that it is highly improbable that Mr. Smith just one day woke up and changed.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6804488 - 04/18/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So are you suggesting we're not responsible for any of our actions & choices?




Yes, that is an implication of hard determinism.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist


Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804504 - 04/18/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So are you suggesting we're not responsible for any of our actions & choices?




Yes, that is an implication of hard determinism.




I think it depends on how you define responsibility. If you see it as a matter of choice-then no. If you see it as a matter of character-then yes.

I think the big effect though will be on the utility of blaming people or attempting to change them. According to a libertarian (free will type) you can just tell them they are bad, knock them around a little and hope they choose to start acting differently. According to a determinist the situation may be a little more complicated.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804515 - 04/18/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The moral implications of determinism are irrelevant anyway, as any argument from that angle would be an appeal to consequences.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804537 - 04/18/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

What about self-discipline?
What about the act of choosing to reanalyze & not act on impulse?
What about two people with the same background making different choices?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist


Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804542 - 04/18/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
The moral implications of determinism are irrelevant anyway, as any argument from that angle would be an appeal to consequences.




Not really. Virtue ethics is not consequential yet is compatible with determinism.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist


Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6804545 - 04/18/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
What about self-discipline?
What about the act of choosing to reanalyze & not act on impulse?




Learned habits.


Quote:

MushroomTrip said:What about two people with the same background making different choices?




Different genes.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineSampaJasli
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804551 - 04/18/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

you're thinking too dichotomously.
people have some control over their own future, that's not to say that their past experiences don't affect them, but both factors play a role.


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OfflineBrainChemicals
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Registered: 04/16/07
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804556 - 04/18/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Cultures obviously have huge implications too. In our culture, is VERY important not to fuck up. Our brain knows this, and self-discipline (which can be almost painful) is used. Like he said, Learned Habits.

Two people, even identical twins, will be hit with different things and causes and therefore react differently. Furthermore, although they are identical twins, they aren't the EXACT same when it comes to brains, etc.


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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OfflineBrainChemicals
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804563 - 04/18/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SampaJasli said:
you're thinking too dichotomously.
people have some control over their own future, that's not to say that their past experiences don't affect them, but both factors play a role.




How could people possible have control? You think there is an uncaused action? Furthermore, evidence done supports what I have been saying. Evidence, especially recently, has shown the brain shoots an action before your consciousness even knows it.


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804564 - 04/18/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
Quote:

it stars saddam said:
The moral implications of determinism are irrelevant anyway, as any argument from that angle would be an appeal to consequences.




Not really. Virtue ethics is not consequential yet is compatible with determinism.




How could ethics or morality even exist in a system of hard determinism/fatalism? Fatalism reduces our existence to a process, therefore any action or thought that is performed in this universe is merely an inevitable part of the process, like a domino falling in line. Any moral value judgements we attempt to place after the fact are meaningless and subjective to the conscious agent.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6804572 - 04/18/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemicals said:
Quote:

SampaJasli said:
you're thinking too dichotomously.
people have some control over their own future, that's not to say that their past experiences don't affect them, but both factors play a role.




How could people possible have control? You think there is an uncaused action? Furthermore, evidence done supports what I have been saying. Evidence, especially recently, has shown the brain shoots an action before your consciousness even knows it.




Soft determinism is hogwash. It basically says "causation is kinda real, but free will is kinda real too."

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804599 - 04/18/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Learned habits?
How do you know that?
There are cases in which people don't have in hand those habits that are being able to make them aware that such thing as self discipline is an option.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist


Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804612 - 04/18/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
How could ethics or morality even exist in a system of hard determinism/fatalism?




As determined judgments. We could evolve a set of determined judgments as an evolutionary consequence of being social animals.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804622 - 04/18/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
Quote:

it stars saddam said:
How could ethics or morality even exist in a system of hard determinism/fatalism?




As determined judgments. We could evolve a set of determined judgments as an evolutionary consequence of being social animals.




Yet those determined judgements would be subjective and a direct result of the environment or particular society in which they evolved. This is made obvious by the profound moral relativism one encounters when examining the customs of other cultures.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6804628 - 04/18/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Learned habits?
How do you know that?




It just seems like the most reasonable conclusion based on personal observation. Don't get me wrong, I realize there is a strong possibility that genetics plays a huge role as well.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:There are cases in which people don't have in hand those habits that are being able to make them aware that such thing as self discipline is an option.




My apologies but I don't quite understand this statement. Do you mean that some people were never habituated into being self-disciplined but that making them aware of the habit can affect them?


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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