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Offlinewaui
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Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Judgement through reincarnation
    #6700783 - 03/22/07 08:42 PM (17 years, 1 day ago)

If a person is born into a 500,000 dollar a year family, and throughout his life he raped a kid without anyone knowing, but then he dies, he is reincarnated into a 15,000 dollar a year family is that not justice and is it considerable for what is?

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Offlinejonathanseagull
Cool!
Male

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Judgement through reincarnation [Re: waui]
    #6700911 - 03/22/07 09:04 PM (17 years, 23 hours ago)

Maybe reincarnation doesn't work on a linear time-line. Maybe he was living multiple incarnations at once. Maybe one of those was the raper, and one was the kid being raped. Maybe he was paying his karmic debt in the same moment he acted wrongfully.

Immediate Justice.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Judgement through reincarnation [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #6702847 - 03/23/07 11:55 AM (17 years, 8 hours ago)

People would want someone like Michael Jackson to be punished so that he can suffer for what he did. The only problem is that he already is suffering for what he did, and it is suffering that caused his actions.

Isn't it punishment enough just BEING MICHAEL JACKSON?

Has anyone who believes in "Justice" thought about that? What we are seeking in my mind is vengeance or retribution. We might feel better if a formal legal sanction is taken against someone be it violent or not, but this does nothing to eradicate or mend the suffering that the individual took fro his inner head and put into someone else's.

Should we want the world to be just we must be sure that all the seeds that cause violence and harm and hate are eliminated from the collective unconscious and in order to do that we must realize that even the Pope probably has some sort of flickering ghost of a memory about a war movie he enjoyed as a kid where he sadistically laughed at someone getting blown up, and probably somewhere along the line was taught by some sort of person that at the very least, it's awesome to gut fish... or animals are stupid things to be beaten.... or some ethnicity deserves to be hurt.... or the enmies of our nation deserve to die

point is

it's sin

droplets of evil in the ocean and some people can't help but swim through them and be tainted in the process.... and we sit around on our fancy oil tankers leaking the shit into the water and pointing our fingers at those who drown in it saying "what an awful person"

well, it's collective. Maybe it's the devil. Maybe not. Mara, samsara, Satan, Jesus... Nirvana.... they all help to explain this shit phenomenon... but I tell you

if you have bliss you give it to others.

If you have suffering you give it to others. No doubt there are numerous karmic reprecussions, at the very least from society should be caught, but much much broader than that, for all your actions.....

it is not so much from judgement IMO but becuase all your grudge energies create your reality in the present moment and as well upon death create a new reality.

This is why it is hard for me to be around any televisions or go into movie shops. The predominant theme is absurd depravity... it's been credibly and scientifically calculated based upon numerous studies that there would be 10,000 murders less a year if there were no TV.

Everyone you go you get to hear "the devil" whispering in your ear that you should fret about traffic, fret about crime, fret about stupid shit, and be intolerant to your neighbor, that you should build up giant fortresses against love and hole yourself in, that it's okay and the norm and hilarious to be upset about traffic and to be an exploited consumer...... but there are also the voices of the Christed beings infiltrating the matrix teaching the Dharma in its purity [I hope so much so that they leave it completely in tact] trying to get you to realize that all this shit, this fucking samsara, is killing you and causing you to kill others.
...
What we need is for every human being to get the deeply personal intervention necessary in order that they begin operating with Dharma consciousness rather than Samsaric..... because it is really tragic that human beings have to play the role of rapist or burglar or victim.... its easy to play the role of comfortable Average Joe and point fingers everywhere but fuck man, we have to clean up the ocean.... these are real human beings just as us and we don't bat an eye at the terrible lives they have, but we're quick to kill Frankenstein when he gets out of line. it has to change now.

the good news is it is changing..... and i think that often times its all in a perspective, but then i hear a woman yelling at her family "stop saying yes i hate it when you interrupt me...... just go meet him at the police station" and on the one hand her suffering is an illusion, because it is a hot ember and you can only hold it until you drop it or it burns your hands off, but on the other it seems to be a central core of her personality programming right now and i'm not sure if she'll drop it or understands that she has a choice not to react in those ways

and then i wonder about all my stupid programs.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (03/23/07 12:06 PM)

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Offlinewaui
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Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Judgement through reincarnation [Re: leery11]
    #6704522 - 03/23/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I believe sin is unforgiven for it has been commited.

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Offlineonlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy
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Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Judgement through reincarnation [Re: waui]
    #6705606 - 03/24/07 06:28 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

if reincarnation does exist, and if someone did rape somebody and cause them suffering, i don't think of it in terms of money, rather descending to a lower "self".  this lower self would have a harder time ascending into it's 'higher self', therefore this person would experience more suffering.  feelings of being caged in, having nowhere to go, i think this person would have a lot to work through in order to transcend into more enlightened states of being.

what if?

such a great question :stoned:


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness

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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Judgement through reincarnation [Re: onlynow]
    #6705676 - 03/24/07 07:53 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

onlynow said:
if reincarnation does exist,




Yeah, big "IF". :smirk:

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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Judgement through reincarnation [Re: waui]
    #6707233 - 03/24/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

waui said:
If a person is born into a 500,000 dollar a year family, and throughout his life he raped a kid without anyone knowing, but then he dies, he is reincarnated into a 15,000 dollar a year family is that not justice and is it considerable for what is?




Reincarnation as you describe here seems like something of a doctrine of cosmically unconstitutional poetic justice. Reincarnation as justice is problematic. The impoverished kid in a $15,000 income family has no sense of a former self, so if it is punishment, it's like punishing a puppy for urinating on your carpet two days after the fact. The puppy has no recollection of the event he's being punished for. At the same time, I've seen this doctrine used fairly broadly to explain why bad things happen to good people.

My reverence of reincarnation comes from certain aspects of ancient Gnosticism, where many archaic mystics took the position that resurrection into the Pleroma (The Beginning or Fullness of God) in one unique life time is a rare feat, and that a 'spark' of consciousness may pass through several physical hosts before finding one that "it" can successfully absorb (resurrect) from the realm of manifestation to the realm of Unmanifest Eternity.

In the Tibetan Book of the Dead rebirth is approached as a consequence of immediate failure to identify with Unmitigated Ultimate Reality, accompanied by a fairly archetypal scenario not unlike the Temptation of Christ; the soul is met with the Light of Reality on one hand, and sexual visions on the other. One either realizes the Light as the Absolute Freedom they always longed for, or the Light merely comes off as disturbing/alien as a result of their non-association with it while manifest. In the later scenario, the soul is said to retreat into another womb instead of embracing liberation. It is not destroyed, the pneuma merely recycles and incarnates once again.

It essentially recycles until it is able to successfully resurrect a host into the Pleroma.

I'm more along these lines, but in an entirely mystical sense. I regard my higher, real self as this pneuma spark; I identity with IT as myself, not my phenomenal self, but I don't consider it strictly consolidated with the phenomenal self. It was derived from the "Beginning" at my brith. This substance (spirit/soul/consciousness) could have very well been manifest before my physical birth - I have no idea, nor would I. Obviously if it was incarnate at one point, it did not liberate and the 'uncreated energies' instead recycled. I don't recall any past lives for the simple reason that these hypothetical (or not) incarnations have long died and failed to resurrect into their respective pneumas (which in that case would mean Liberation, not Reincarnation). Their pneumas (at least in my own gnostic philosophy) become blank slates, essentially ready for re-use.

Such is my understanding at least. There is no limit in the Ground of Being, and for man to become Unlimited he is to become the Beginning again. It is here that God and man become inseperable, and physical death merely becomes a cornerstone where the remaining barrier between Unity and incarnation is removed.

It is not so much a case of monolithic souls travelling to and fro through realms, but rather humanity - in their random manifested nature, deriving their Being from the Ground of Being.

Like salt-water lakes longing for the Ocean.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Edited by Basilides (03/24/07 06:26 PM)

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