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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo
    #6521302 - 02/01/07 08:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #6522246 - 02/02/07 12:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

A lot of those topics have been beaten to death here. I was suprised to hear him bring up the "PSS Agreement". This is new one and so far, since I learned about it last week, everyone I have asked if they knew about says, "No, whats that?" . It was sealed in march of '06.

No one has been able to defend it here yet and its been brought up 3 times now in the last week.


It's the begining of the end of our constitution. 

Here is why and how.  This agreement was made between Bush, the Prime Minister of Canada and the President of Mexico. It was never brought to congrees for a vote nor put into our law or made within the laws of the constitution.

With it, our tax money will be used, to open more ports within the 3 countries to accept a greater flow of over seas goods and build a highway through them as well to move them around easier and cheaper. This agreement also makes it easier for Big Business to send manufacturing plants to mexico where labor is cheaper. (They say it will help them, though whatever extra the poor people make in Mexico, it will be sucked up by the inflation that will hit them when they experience a quick economic boom.

As big business here sells goods manufactured from elsewhere, the middle class worker continues to die out.

If you are poor, and know what's going on, you don't have the power to stop it. If you are one of the rich getting richer (talking anything 6 digits a year or over) life is good and getting better. You're getting richer! Why would you want to stop the system paying for your fancy cars and luxury homes and vacations and ability to afford the servants (Even more easily coming in from mexico now with imigration laws and borders weakening) to clean, cook, raise your kids and do the yard work for you.

What is there to stop anyway? Trade, competition, co-operation with our neighbors, these things are all good for us and the economy. Go read the PSS site. They will tell you how great this new agreement is.

YEAH! So this new economy base gets estblished and anchored in relation to a tri-national agreement that Congrees had no part of. If any appeals are to be made to it, they have to be brought to a tri-national tribunal that was formed that will act as the law over this "agreement".

It's above and out of the hands of the Federal and Supreme Court. That puts it above the Constitution, above the law. Everything related to this new system, comes under the jurisdiction of the tri-national tribunal which is judge, jury, jailor. The laws written in the U.S. Consitution don't apply to it or protect you from it.

Bye Bye Constitution:bye: You may be there in black and white on paper, but without the backing of the U.S. Judicial systems power, you have no power anymore.

The only way now to stop it in its tracks and put it into reverse is to stop buying anything not made in America and to quit selling products not made in America. That would force all consumerism acts to fall under the constitution and keep it strong and alive and our soverignity as a nation in tact. Otherwise, nothing else we do related to our economy will fall under it anymore. It'll weaken until the new power of the tribunal takes over as the Supreme Governing Law of the new Tri-National State.

And did I forget to say, bye bye soverign U.S.of A. :bye:

Okay, now proceed to flame the shit out of me. I don't care about being called names on a message board over this. I do care to bring this into greater view and light, because I care.

I would like for someone to explain wtf he was talking about related to democracy, something we are fed we have, but never really had so how can we know if its screwed up or not. The national elections don't even work on the majority rule principle. In the last election, Gore had the majority of the national votes. Bush had the majority of some stupid outdated sytem called the electoral college and won and we've been calling that a democracy?:crazy:. We've never been a democracy so how can we know anything about it.

When there is only one thing to go around, how else do you decide what happens to it but by majority rule?

Sure you can argue for anarchy. Sounds Divine if people won't take their new liberties and freedoms to become a total menace to a respectful of others rights and peaceful society?

How realistic is it that no one will harm another if there are no laws in place? Should we all carry guns and shoot the pricks who can't be cool in such a society? Should we put cannons on top of our homes, smoke cigars and call ourselves each El Presidente of my yard and home? Are we all afforded a plot of land that we all just agree to respect? How does that work when we still have the conscious mentality in play to "take from the few who make to gain", not "make and trade to gain."

I'm open to hearing anti democracy arguments and more explanation of how a Republic works. In fact, I am going to learn more about it myself now. Maybe I'll be arguing for it soon:lol: Maybe not. :shrug:

But that PSS agreement. Bad news it looks like to me for our soverign nation and protection of rights under the Constitution which will start to deteriorate in about 20 years as the new Tri-National system and Law, that sits above Congress and the Constituion, takes over rule of comerse of the lands and people. :nonono:

Oh, and who has what to say about the IRS taking our money being against the 16th ammendment? That was news to me. Is that true? I already knew the Federal Reserve was corrupt as all hell though.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #6522947 - 02/02/07 10:20 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"I got beat up by Chicago police."

WOW! Who woulda thunk it?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6523929 - 02/02/07 03:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sorry, do we just ignore history now?

All of these same arguments were made pre-NAFTA. Each and every one. "The poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer, we'll have no more jobs"...

NAFTA came into effect in 1994. Compare the economy today to that of 1994. Everyone is wealthier and we have more jobs than ever before.

But somehow this is forgotten and we're supposed to believe that free trade is a bad thing suddenly, when 13 years of it have brought us nothing but prosperity.

The same arguments happen the world over. Prior to reunification, there were many in West Germany who believed that the reintroduction of the now bankrupt East Germany would turn the whole country into a third world nation. This has clearly not happened. The same exact arguments have been applied time and again to European economy integration. Again, Western Europe has not suffered severe job loss post EU expansion.

I don't understand why these complaints keep getting made about Free Trade. I'm sorry but at the end of the day history has shown us, time and again, that more Free Trade means more prosperity for everyone, both in our own country post-NAFTA and abroad.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Economist]
    #6524788 - 02/02/07 08:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have always defined a nations prosperity by the lack of poverty.
If you take a look at a chart for lets say the US it has been bouncing
between 12% and 16% since 1965. And from 2001 poverty has increased.

Look at the income inequality rich are in-fact getting richer and the poor poorer.

There are always fluctuations and I don't really think you can go from
94 in order to see how the world is progressing.

Maybe you know some nice place with charts and numbers?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Arp]
    #6524955 - 02/02/07 09:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
I have always defined a nations prosperity by the lack of poverty.
If you take a look at a chart for lets say the US it has been bouncing
between 12% and 16% since 1965. And from 2001 poverty has increased.



I just don't believe this is true.

Looking at the 2006 US Mayor's Survey (available here: http://usmayors.org/uscm/hungersurvey/2006/report06.pdf the data I'm citing is on page 91 of the PDF) we can see that 2003-2006 brought some of the lowest increases in homelessness and hunger in the past 2 decades (city populations usually increase, so an increase at a decreasing rate is usually the same as an overall decrease in the poverty rate).

Hunger and homelessness really have improved, and they're doing better now than they were pre-1994 with no question.

Besides, the claim was made that NAFTA would result in rampant poverty throughout the US. This clearly has not been the result, so why should we believe further increases in Free Trade will bring this about?

Quote:

Arp said:
Look at the income inequality rich are in-fact getting richer and the poor poorer.



It's not a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. It's a case of college paying off more than ever, and more people going to college than ever before.

The OECD has found that in the US (report here: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/35341210.pdf ) the gap between those with a college degree and those without is a 91% difference in pay.

Economic research carried out by the Federal Reserve has reached the same conclusions. Quoting from President Janet Yellen of the SF Fed branch:

"Since the early 1980s, the wage gap between college graduates and those with a high school education or less has widened dramatically; the gap between high school graduates and non-graduates also has widened, but less so. Thus it appears that the demand for college educated workers has outstripped the supply. While rising returns to education at the upper end of the distribution led to a pickup in college enrollment, the increase in supply has not been sufficient to reduce the wage gap between college and high school educated workers."
(available here: http://www.frbsf(dot)org/publications/economics/letter/2006/el2006-33-34.html hyperlink removed because it's a gov't affiliated cite, but it's got GREAT graphs if you just want a quick look)

So, prosperity really has increased for all Americans, but especially for those who stick with education and get a college degree. In today's America getting a college degree is easier than ever, and Free Trade will not change this.

Quote:

Arp said:
There are always fluctuations and I don't really think you can go from 94 in order to see how the world is progressing.



The opponents of NAFTA were claiming pretty catastrophic damage to the US job market and economy as soon as NAFTA was passed. Given that 13 years have transpired and no cataclysm has occured, I think it's safe to say that they were wrong, and that we have no reason to believe their disproven theories when going forward.

Going back to 1993 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/trade/stories/tr111893.htm), then-Congressman David E. Bonior (D-Michigan) explicitly claimed that NAFTA would result in the loss of 500,000 jobs. We have since gone from 128 million jobs in January of 1994 (when NAFTA started) to 152 million jobs today. The unemployment rate has been at a historic low for the past decade. The opponents of Free Trade were wrong, simple as that.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Economist]
    #6525154 - 02/02/07 11:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.acf.hhs(.gov)/programs/ofa/annualreport6/chapter09/09figa.jpg
Here you see child poverty has increased since 2000. If the chart was longer you would see that this is no revolutionary all-time low.
The chart has looked like this since the 50s going up and down.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Gini_since_WWII.gif
The Gini Coefficient value for the US is increasing which is an
indicator for increased income inequality.

Correct?

Now with the free-market and people coming in taking minimum wage of
course more people will need to study in order to compete. But that
doesn't mean that the competitors wont keep up as well and its mostly
the lowest bidder that gets hired.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Arp]
    #6525282 - 02/03/07 12:37 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
http://www.acf.hhs(.gov)/programs/ofa/annualreport6/chapter09/09figa.jpg
Here you see child poverty has increased since 2000. If the chart was longer you would see that this is no revolutionary all-time low.
The chart has looked like this since the 50s going up and down.



No offense, but I don't see how that chart helps prove that NAFTA was somehow "harmful" to the economy.

To begin with, children in poverty is a poor measure of national poverty overall both because children are a relatively small portion of the population (around 1/5th in the US) and because lower income brackets tend to have more children. It's just not a good measure.

But even if we pretend for a moment that it is a good measure, that graph clearly hits a peak in 1993 and decreases from 1994 (when NAFTA came into effect) until 2000. However, in increase since 2000 is so slight it's still not up to 1998 levels. Furthermore, looking at data that goes beyond 2002, (available here: http://www.nccp.org/media/nst06a_text.pdf on page 6 of the pdf) we can see that the level of children in poverty has remained constant since 2003, and it is still below the 1998 level.

Those who opposed Free Trade claimed that NAFTA would kill the economy, spreading poverty and eliminating jobs. This data proves fundamentally that they were wrong. There is no reason to block further measures to promote free trade based on theories that have been demonstrated to be incorrect.

Quote:

Arp said:
The Gini Coefficient value for the US is increasing which is an
indicator for increased income inequality.

Correct?



I don't think anyone has claimed that income inequality hasn't increased, the question is: why?

The answer is fairly simple: there is a HUGE demand for college-educated workers, and that demand is outstripping the supply of college-educated workers. When this happens, the wages of college-educated workers skyrocket while other wages remain constant. This creates inequality.

But a better question might be, what happens when wages don't skyrocket? Looking at the second graph you posted, we can see that almost every country in the EU, with the exception of the UK, has not experienced the same growth in wage disparity. Thus it is not surprising when we find out that the European Commission is currently trying to spend millions of Euros to fight what has been described as "Frightening Brain Drain" in Europe. (source: http://www.euractiv.com/en/innovation/innovation-strategy-fight-europe-brain-drain/article-157805 )

What about the UK? We can see that they are actually benefitting from continental brain drain in the EU! (source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/06/28/eu.university/index.html )

Simply put, when you don't pay your best and brightest salaries commensurate with demand for their skills, they leave. In the US, these skills are in VERY high demand, and pay has increased. If pay did not increase for those workers, they would travel elsewhere. Personally, I prefer it when the best and brightest workers in my country continue to work in my country so that I benefit from their expertise.

Quote:

Arp said:
Now with the free-market and people coming in taking minimum wage of
course more people will need to study in order to compete. But that
doesn't mean that the competitors wont keep up as well and its mostly
the lowest bidder that gets hired.



I don't know what you're talking about with the "lowest bidder gets hired".

Believe me, I'd work as the CEO of Walmart in a second for a quarter of his salary, but they're clearly not going to hire me any time soon into that position.

Because the reality is that the most competent people get hired, not the lowest bidders. Given equal skill and experience, the lower bidders will get hired, but that's not usually the case. Thankfully (as recent data proves) America is still something of a meritocracy. If you want better pay, the answer is the same as it has always been: improve yourself.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Economist]
    #6525370 - 02/03/07 01:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Brain drain is very sad. Considering that many countries in Europe
offer free education. Where is the ethics in going abroad in quest of
wealth on knowledge acquired on other taxpayers money. There should be
a pay-back plan implemented if the person does not intend to work in
the society that made this possible. That way making it easier for
various social-systems to exist and less attractive for opportunistic
traitors :wink:

I find this "rat race" tiresome and all the free market seems to bring
is just more work (as you said) and necessity to improve in and
endless manner. But if work is what you live for then you might as well die doing it :-).

Or will robots take over all the labour in a near future so we can relax if this keeps going? You think? :smile:

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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Arp]
    #6525466 - 02/03/07 02:42 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
I find this "rat race" tiresome and all the free market seems to bring
is just more work (as you said) and necessity to improve in and
endless manner. But if work is what you live for then you might as well die doing it :-).




So we shouldn't try to improve and move forward? So what exactly should be our aim then? Stay where we are? It is endless. We need to move forward to our full potential and then we should improve upon that.

I derive great pleasure from work and improvement. Is that wrong?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleArp
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: z@z.com]
    #6525529 - 02/03/07 03:18 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

As long as we don't exhaust this fine planet of ours I guess why not.
I think this compulsive global nation that is being built just puts
out the possibilities of diverse societies. I'm okay with someone
biting their fingernails but I think you can improve in many more ways
if you look inwards instead of getting obsessed with trying to tailor
nature as a neurotic monkey. I'm not saying that I'm not one of them,
the addiction is deep and seductive but is this fascist society for
the elite really the only good deal we can score?

Is there some fundamental point to this that I'm missing or is it just
a way to distract the mind? What is the whole ordeal behind "work and
improve"? What happens if we just stop and do things without competing?
Will we miss the big climax of progress that eventually will happened and makes us all one with god?

Or is all about a view of humanity as the donkey and the carrot who occasionally needed a lash with the whip?

I'm just guessing. I don't know the score like you guys but hope to be educated :smile:

Hope I'm not getting too off-topic :tongue:

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Offlinegregorio
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Arp]
    #6553349 - 02/11/07 05:32 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:


Look at the income inequality rich are in-fact getting richer and the poor poorer.

Maybe you know some nice place with charts and numbers?




I wish I did because I would like to see some of those charts. Which would include 5, 10, and 20 year figures of household yearly income figures (excluding actual paid taxes) and see how they have changed over those time periods as a percentage of total population. If it could be done individual population would probably be a better way to go about.

The definition of what is and "rich" and "poor" has to be a pretty good one too.

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Offlinetrippindad82
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: gregorio]
    #6553503 - 02/11/07 08:20 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe someone would also like to know that the money supply since 2001 has doubled. What that means (for those of you who like to read your bullshit numbers and statistics) is that your $5000 that you had in the bank is really only worth $2500. And also, go back and look at your history. Things looked great back in 1929 before the big crash.

For those of you chiming in that NAFTA was a great thing. I happen to live in one of the cities that was WRECKED by NAFTA. Sure, these same people who were laid off are employed again, but at half of what they were making before. KODAK, XEROX, GM (and subsidiaries) ran across the border (hell KODAK had factories half built before Nafta was even passed). The economy in my area has been hit hard.

College is the biggest farce and scam out there. Just because you have a piece of paper that states you paid $50,000 to sit in a classroom and do nothing doesn't make you a valuable worker. Paychex requires a four year education in order to make 8.50/hr. All you are going to notice is that jobs that used to not require an education are now going to require one. Any bit of information that can be learned for a ridiculous amount of money can also be picked up from your local library. COLLEGE IS BULLSHIT. College doesn't make you smarter, college doesn't make you a better worker, college doesn't prove anything more than you are going to do what you are told to do. Someone told you to go to college, so you did. Guess what (for most of you out there), your job details can be trained to ANYBODY. Why do you think (except for specialty degrees...to a degree) you went through job training? I could walk in and get trained for any of your jobs. Any of you could walk in and get trained for any other job. I can guarantee few, if any people on this site have taken ANY classes for mushroom cultivation. Does that make you unqualified to grow mushrooms?


--------------------
Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


--------------------------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: trippindad82]
    #6553539 - 02/11/07 08:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Maybe someone would also like to know that the money supply since 2001 has doubled. What that means (for those of you who like to read your bullshit numbers and statistics) is that your $5000 that you had in the bank is really only worth $2500.




You really need to check your premises.

The cost of living has DOUBLED in six years? Not hardly, dude.

How much did a pound of hamburger cost six years ago where you live? Half what it does today? Nope. What about a Ford Focus car? A pair of jeans? A set of socket wrenches? A 4x8 sheet of 3/4 inch plywood? The rent on your apartment?

Do any of those things cost TWICE what they did six years ago? Not even close.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: Phred]
    #6553545 - 02/11/07 08:53 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

He seems to have this quaint notion that wealth is finite and fixed.
trippindad's Theory of the Conservation of Wealth which states that wealth cannot be created. All the wealth in the universe has existed since the big bang. Quaint but wrong.


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Offlinetrippindad82
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6553578 - 02/11/07 09:22 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Wealth is not finite and fixed. We live in a system based on nothing. And they (the Fed) can create more nothing with nothing. I am just stating that a poor economy can be hidden with an increase in the money supply. More money = money money to spend. Why didn't we need that money doubled before 9/11? And why was it doubled after 9/11? Maybe to hide the fading economy until it's too late? This was exactly what they did before and during the Great Depression. It didn't fix anything, it just masked the problems and made things worse.


--------------------
Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


--------------------------------------


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: trippindad82]
    #6553675 - 02/11/07 10:39 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trippindad82 said:

College is the biggest farce and scam out there. Just because you have a piece of paper that states you paid $50,000 to sit in a classroom and do nothing doesn't make you a valuable worker. Paychex requires a four year education in order to make 8.50/hr. All you are going to notice is that jobs that used to not require an education are now going to require one. Any bit of information that can be learned for a ridiculous amount of money can also be picked up from your local library. COLLEGE IS BULLSHIT. College doesn't make you smarter, college doesn't make you a better worker, college doesn't prove anything more than you are going to do what you are told to do. Someone told you to go to college, so you did. Guess what (for most of you out there), your job details can be trained to ANYBODY. Why do you think (except for specialty degrees...to a degree) you went through job training? I could walk in and get trained for any of your jobs. Any of you could walk in and get trained for any other job. I can guarantee few, if any people on this site have taken ANY classes for mushroom cultivation. Does that make you unqualified to grow mushrooms?




What if you are employed at the college you attend?  :smirk:


--------------------
Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: trippindad82]
    #6553794 - 02/11/07 11:45 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Any bit of information that can be learned for a ridiculous amount of money can also be picked up from your local library. COLLEGE IS BULLSHIT.

i know a that guy owns a very successful jet engine failure analysis and aircraft recovery/salvage business. he's a mechanical whiz. he never went to college.

other than that, i've never met a single person with advanced knowledge in a particular field that did not go to college.

you can teach yourself anything, but it takes a lot of dedication. most of the people i know who are really informed about a particular field studied it in college. i guess you can learn stuff in college.


--------------------


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: trippindad82]
    #6554391 - 02/11/07 02:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trippindad82 said:
Maybe someone would also like to know that the money supply since 2001 has doubled. What that means (for those of you who like to read your bullshit numbers and statistics) is that your $5000 that you had in the bank is really only worth $2500.




Like it was mentioned earlier the inflation rate han't increased by 200% and in fact has been pretty much held in check. There are dangers involved though when the F.R. attempts to stimulate the economy by increasing the money supply.

Interest rates are the key. If inflation starts rearing it's ugly head interest rates will be increased. It doesn't have to take a large increase to cause disaster to the tens of millions of people with ARM who can barely afford to pay their mortgage payments as it is.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: alex jones interviews outspoken libertarian aaron russo [Re: gregorio]
    #6554807 - 02/11/07 05:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

the best way to evaluate the true worth of our money, is by comparing it to gold. Gold is a standard, so when you see the price of gold go up over here, it's really our money losing value against it.

http://www.usagold.com/reference/prices/history.html


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