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Sinbad
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Buddhism to a Christian
#6463163 - 01/15/07 05:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Had a conversation with a xtian that i live with today about Buddhism. i was explaining things like the dynamics of karma and how this forms the basis of morality without the need for a godlike creator being. I also explained a little about wisdom, kindness and compassion, and how ending suffering for ourselves automatically has pure compassion as its result, and that until then, compassion will always be conditioned.
After explaining all this, he said that Buddhism sounds too simplistic, and like a convenient philosophy, and also how kindness and compassion aren't very spiritual qualities. I asked him to explain why he thought this, as i have always considered kindness and compassion to be very spiritually awakened attributes. He said that kindness was a given, that it is something that comes naturally to him, and he considers spiritual gifts from God, such as talking in tongues and other siddhi's to be of much more spiritual significance.
Personally i have had to observe well, checking my intentions and working with my emotions to become even the slightest bit genuinely compassionate and kind to others.
My question is, do you consider kindness and compassion to be more or less spiritually significant than mystical abilities?
And also, how difficult is it for you to be genuinely or naturally compassionate and kind to your fellow beings?
Peace
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Edited by Sinbad (01/15/07 05:41 PM)
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leery11
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6463228 - 01/15/07 05:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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to be genuinely compassionate is not something i have discovered yet per se
in the sense of generally perhaps not having a chance to practice it
if siddhis are not used to alleviate suffering i see them as less important than compassion, however should one be proficient in say mind-reading, this may be used to heal people in ways much more powerful than someone who is genuinely kind but perhaps may not be able to accurately assess what is going on with another person's levels of ignorance
?
i think they are all important honestly.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Sinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: leery11]
#6463247 - 01/15/07 05:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, certainly in buddhism there are siddhi's, but they are seen as much less important than realization, the supreme siddhi that will certainly help to alleviate sufferings.
Honestly, i think i must have offended him by suggesting a doctrine that did not depend on a Godlike being for a moralistic framework. Or perhaps it was when i said that for my path, a godlike being just doesn't seem logical. yeah, that was most likely it.
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leery11
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6463264 - 01/15/07 05:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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that is likely
when i think about this issue it's hard not to be biased.
sure i think it illogical that a Godlike being exists, and find Buddhism to be a far more adequate explanation for how life works without any dogma and needless myths, but
is there objective logic? i think so, can we say Buddhism is more logical than Christianity? It is more empirically grounded perhaps?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Sinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: leery11]
#6463281 - 01/15/07 05:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Buddhism is logical because its a path that requires validation through ones own meditative experience, and not just something taken up on blind faith. Its also logical on an exoteric level because its based on fundamental principles that relate to ones own experience of life directly. But this isnt what my friend was refuting, he said Buddhism was logical, but he also said it is somewhat to simplistic and lacking in real spiritual knowledge.
Perhaps this was just an indirect assault on me, if that is true then in that respect, perhaps he has a point.
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dblaney
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6463360 - 01/15/07 06:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: My question is, do you consider kindness and compassion to be more or less spiritually significant than mystical abilities?
And also, how difficult is it for you to be genuinely or naturally compassionate and kind to your fellow beings?
Loving-kindness and compassion are very spiritually significant, IMO. Mystical abilities are more of a distraction, as once you've got such an ability (which, coincidentally, the yoga sutras say can be induced with herbs and drugs), there is a natural temptation to use it for ego-driven ends. Even if you think "I'm going to help others with this" it's still ego driven "I'm going to help others".
If you really want to help others, the best thing to do is to realize the state of liberation.
Compassion can be difficult to practice, as very often it goes against our own desires and leanings. True compassion is selfless and flows with reality and life. IMO, it is far more important than being able to turn water into wine.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Sinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: dblaney]
#6463367 - 01/15/07 06:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree 100%
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Disco Cat
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6464236 - 01/15/07 10:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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An educated Christian would likely tell you that Buddhism and Christianity are very identical. He's probably just wanting to put a line between the two philosophies, which in the end are the same philosophy.
Kindness and compassion are spiritual in essence. They are both faculties of love, and at the center of Christian philosophy. But just like there are angry buddhists, there are ignorant christians, heaps of them. If Buddhism was around in the same numbers here the ratios of false Buddhists to real ones would be the same as false Christians are to real ones, and I strongly suspect that the majority are the blind folks that the teachings warn against.
I once had a dick-head of a Buddhist teacher. Arrogant and absolutely dim in his knowledge. In the end you learn that denominations, and I'm refering to Buddhism and Christianity both as denominations, have to go, and there are stupid people and smart people. There are people who strive for good and people who strive for bad but don't see it themselves or see anything wrong with it. There are no people who will strive for bad and admit so.
I can be very natually compassionate. If you can allow the metaphor, I believe it depends on the amount of light inside yourself. Someone who used to have light but lost it may still be compassionate, due to memory and what's been learned. The difference maybe being compassion out of instinct and compassion out of memory, or maybe there is no difference at all.
I'm naturally very compassionate in life, tho I know I'm different than most, but I can't see it any other way and couldn't act any other way as it is the only way that makes sense to me.
I think society bears some spiritual holes together, and that the holes one culture may bear can be different than another culture's, and that the holes can also differentiate in different centuries, as groups of people grow together, and get pulled down together.
Thankfully I had a lot of my holes filled in early on, or rather I was spared being inflicted with those holes. I still don't understand how people can not be naturally compassionate, but people still claim not to be.
I know that to be uncompassionate is the unnatural state, and that being compassionate is the natural one.
Edited by Disco Cat (01/16/07 04:51 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Disco Cat]
#6464800 - 01/16/07 03:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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yes it seems that loving kindness is the most spiritual thing. we are driven to mysticism to explain the relative stupidity of people who don't understand this. mysticism sucks.
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Sinbad
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yes, i always thought that loving kindness was the most spiritual quality, other than the ability to teach the way to end suffering. Of course, wisdom without compassion is pretty useless, and vice verser. They are like two wings that one needs to fly out of ones limited cage. I don't think mysticism is inherently stupid, i just feel that the mystical aspects of spirituality are more of a side effect rather than the result that one is seeking by following a path. I suppose it can also be like bait for getting people who are interested to learn more.
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Gomp
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6464887 - 01/16/07 05:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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To=too = And .....
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Sinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Gomp]
#6464913 - 01/16/07 05:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gomp said: To=too = And .....
Lay off the drugs gomp.
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badreligion2good
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6465313 - 01/16/07 10:01 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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For those of us in this forum interested in Buddhism, I suggest joining a Buddhist forum. I find the shroomery isn't the best place for philosophy or Buddhism. I imagine some of you are members in Buddhist forums already, but those of that aren't should look into it. I recently joined one and I already find their forum to be more interesting and stimulating then shroomery.
So, check it out!
-------------------- All I know is that I dont know. Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
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leery11
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does Christianity have any teachings that tell you to question its teachings?
I was talking to a Christian who said all other religions were religions of Satan [although Jesus was accused of being a demon and he simply said demons don't heal people) and I told her that thing about Buddhism is that Buddha said his teaching was a snake, it was very dangerous unless handled properly, and that it was like a raft. Once one gets to the other shore they no longer have a reason for it.
If Christians were taught those two lessons in parable by Christ we might not have so much of a mess on our hands.
I know Jesus says damn the scribes and pharisees and things like that, and if you read between the lines you see Jesus was the "question authority" man of his times, but, reading between the lines isn't taught in Sunday School, afterall I mean.... well.... reading in metaphor is hardly even taught.
But for Christians interested in Buddhism Thich Nhat Hanh explains things very very well in his book "Living Buddha, Living Christ"
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (01/16/07 10:07 AM)
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Irdamage
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6465518 - 01/16/07 11:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: Had a conversation with a xtian that i live with today about Buddhism. i was explaining things like the dynamics of karma and how this forms the basis of morality without the need for a godlike creator being. I also explained a little about wisdom, kindness and compassion, and how ending suffering for ourselves automatically has pure compassion as its result, and that until then, compassion will always be conditioned.
After explaining all this, he said that Buddhism sounds too simplistic, and like a convenient philosophy, and also how kindness and compassion aren't very spiritual qualities. I asked him to explain why he thought this, as i have always considered kindness and compassion to be very spiritually awakened attributes. He said that kindness was a given, that it is something that comes naturally to him, and he considers spiritual gifts from God, such as talking in tongues and other siddhi's to be of much more spiritual significance.
Personally i have had to observe well, checking my intentions and working with my emotions to become even the slightest bit genuinely compassionate and kind to others.
My question is, do you consider kindness and compassion to be more or less spiritually significant than mystical abilities?
And also, how difficult is it for you to be genuinely or naturally compassionate and kind to your fellow beings? Peace
Nothing personal but I can easily see how someone could take offence to this. If not offence then at least be forced to propose their own point of views. Im going to avoid the kindness and compassion issue and jump right into the social issues that arise here. I think you bit off more than you could chew by trying to explain things as complex as Karma,morality,wisdom,kindness and compassion, and you may have come off either condicending or even very prideful of your "knowledge of life". To quote some buttfuck televangelist "As you grow old you discover many things, some things you were right about in youth, and some things you were wrong about, but dont be cocky inbetween" I just think you sounded a little pompus there trying to explain all these individually defined concepts.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Sinbad]
#6465778 - 01/16/07 12:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: yes, i always thought that loving kindness was the most spiritual quality, other than the ability to teach the way to end suffering. ... I suppose it can also be like bait for getting people who are interested to learn more.
compassion encompasses teaching completely teaching without compassion is playacting
and compassion surpasses mysticism, at best mysticism provides a wrinkling of the forehead
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Disco Cat
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: leery11]
#6466334 - 01/16/07 03:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said: does Christianity have any teachings that tell you to question its teachings?
Jesus said to test his words to see if they are true. There were some others, or another, but I don't recall it/them at the moment.
Along the same line: My people perish because of lack of understanding Righteousness is proved by her works
Quote:
leery11 said: I told her that thing about Buddhism is that Buddha said his teaching was a snake, it was very dangerous unless handled properly, and that it was like a raft. Once one gets to the other shore they no longer have a reason for it.
Jesus said all that too, calling his teaching the Way, and that the truth will set you free. He also warned that many will come in his name who aren't of him, that his teaching was a sword, that some will be crushed by it and others shattered... It's more ambiguous, and more thought is needed by the reader to get it, but the exact same things are being said. He also said that he spoke this way on purpose. Why? I'm not yet sure.
Edited by Disco Cat (01/16/07 03:25 PM)
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Sinbad
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Indeed, the whole intention for teaching is predicated upon compassion.
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lobotomix
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my experience with christian (jehova-guy to be exactly)
is that, his view of god and his view of the world is very much tied together with how he feels.
he's got a logical explanation for everything and that makes him feel safe.. in a way.
the thought that he may be wrong about something, makes him feel sick to his stomache. it would mean that his whole fake-feeling of safety would be exposed as a lie, and he can't handle that.
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Sinbad
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Re: Buddhism to a Christian [Re: Irdamage]
#6466500 - 01/16/07 04:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, he asked the question, and i gave an answer. What was i supposed to say? Sorry, Buddhism is too complex to explain to you man. That would be a whole lot more condescending than a clear explanation, and i think he has more intelligence than you give him credit for anyway.
I suppose i might have come off as a bit prideful, because in a way, i do feel a sense of satisfaction at finding a path that really works for me. But this is an expression of joy, not pride, and he also shares the same sentiment when it comes to his path, so in that way, there is no real problem.
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