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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Making Use of Non-Rational Experience
    #6271562 - 11/11/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Veritas made a post on sanity which has brought this subject to my mind. There is rational experience and non-rational experience. The difference between the two is to an extent self defined, but rational experiences are experiences that our programming and experience withins the cultural norms have prepared us to deal with and analyze. Non-rational experiences are experiences that occur outside of our cultural programming and accepted norms of reality...the unknown. I tend to classify many (not all) psychedelic experiences, salvia, and shamanic explorations as non-rational, but anytime one moves outside their cultural programming and societies accepted norms they are liable to encounter non-rational experience on the other side of the fence.

When one decides to explore the non-rational (as I have) then criteria must be applied to the processing of this information if one desires to make practical use of it. Since most of our cultural programming and experiences have not prepared us to deal with the non-rational we must discard all of these previously agreed upon norms. That does not mean that rational thought cannot be applied. One must analyze ones experience in the context of the experience itself and also within the context of other non-rational experience and thought. To deal with the non-rational in a meaningful way one must maintain absolute sobriety of thought. By this I mean that one must accept full responsibility for every thought and action in the proper context of each action and thought. These are conclusions that I have come to from my experiences with the non-rational. As one progresses on the path to awareness one is forced to look beyond the boundaries of our accepted programming. When one explores this territory the non-rational can become a daily part of life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6271593 - 11/11/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I agree.

I had many non-rational experiences prior to using psychedelics, however. It seemed to me, at the time, that this variety of experience was available to everyone, all the time. When I attempted to discuss this with others I was met with blank looks and/or assertions that I was "crazy." I learned to keep my non-rational experiences to myself.

Perhaps psychedelics offer us a "magic feather, " (ala Dumbo) an object which we believe opens the door to non-rational experience? The key is within our own consciousness, but we have deliberately hidden it from ourselves in order to conform to the standards of rationality.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Veritas]
    #6271606 - 11/11/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"I had many non-rational experiences prior to using psychedelics, however. It seemed to me, at the time, that this variety of experience was available to everyone, all the time. When I attempted to discuss this with others I was met with blank looks and/or assertions that I was "crazy." I learned to keep my non-rational experiences to myself."

This was why I questioned your use of the word sanity in your sanity post. You apparently can handle non-rational experience with sobriety. My schizophrenic brother cannot. Therein lies the difference between mentally stable and unstable. Many mentally ill have learned to deal with their non-rational experience with sobriety. This would take them out of the realm of "insane" and into the realm of the shaman. The movie "A Beautiful Mind" is a good example of this.

"Perhaps psychedelics offer us a "magic feather, " (ala Dumbo) an object which we believe opens the door to non-rational experience? The key is within our own consciousness, but we have deliberately hidden it from ourselves in order to conform to the standards of rationality."

I agree. It is something that gives ones attention to focus on in order to enter non-rational experience, but these experiences can occur under many circumstances. I have had them without drugs throughout my life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6271693 - 11/11/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I used the term "sanity" because I wanted to explore all the connotations this word has acquired over time. It seems that it is used as a fence to keep the sheep penned in, rather than the flexible distinction of healthy individuals from unhealthy individuals.

IMO, the acceptance AND integration of non-rational experience is essential to mental health.

If there is only acceptance, the individual may find the perceived dichotomy between rational and non-rational too disturbing, and their personality becomes disorganized and unhelpful. Insane.

If there is no acceptance or integration, the individual becomes "ossified," or rigid and dead in their personality. They cannot experience joy, and find little pleasure in being alive. Also insane.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6271756 - 11/11/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"Non-rational" as in illogical (This object is a tree and not a tree) or "non-rational" as in counter-intuitive?

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Veritas]
    #6271758 - 11/11/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If there is no acceptance or integration, the individual becomes "ossified," or rigid and dead in their personality. They cannot experience joy, and find little pleasure in being alive. Also insane.




This would be my definition of mental illness.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Veritas]
    #6271816 - 11/11/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I used the term "sanity" because I wanted to explore all the connotations this word has acquired over time. It seems that it is used as a fence to keep the sheep penned in, rather than the flexible distinction of healthy individuals from unhealthy individuals.

This is what I felt your other thread was exploring. When someone cannot function in this world they cannot it seems function in an expanded one. This is a guess based on the small amount of evidence I know of.

I agree with your post Hue. I do wonder though if all non-ordinary experience needs to be run though the filter of logical and rational evaluation to be of benefit. I say this because of some high dose solo  shroom trips I have had. I felt at some point I fell into my unconscious levels. Something like lucid dreaming. When it was over I felt that I couldn't remember what had happened very much like we lose  the thread of a dream as we awaken. Yet I experienced what I felt was profound change from the experience. Interesting. There may be a time to totally let go and be chaos. :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/11/06 12:08 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Icelander]
    #6271870 - 11/11/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"I do wonder though if all non-ordinary experience needs to be run though the filter of logical and rational evaluation to be of benefit."

No it does not. Only rational experience needs to be applied to these filters. One can rationally apply non-rational knowledge by dealing with it rationally WITHIN the context of non-rational experience. This does not necessarily equate with rational thought as we commonly know it. This is why consistency and sobriety are valuable for this task...to prevent one from becoming unstable in the face of the unknown.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Icelander]
    #6271886 - 11/11/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

most people are just plain wrong about rational thinking.

thinking is associative there is no biologic process for "logic".

there are logical seeming rituals and performances that vary culturally. but they are ineffective in themselves for puzzling through problems.

with less pretentious modes of mental activity, wider associations are possible.

go figgure!


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6271936 - 11/11/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

One can rationally apply non-rational knowledge by dealing with it rationally WITHIN the context of non-rational experience. :whoa: Brainbender. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Icelander]
    #6271980 - 11/11/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

We ARE talking about non-rational experience...what do you expect?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6272011 - 11/11/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I expect to feel like I'm smart enough to follow you.  :hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Icelander]
    #6272048 - 11/11/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Don't worry...it's not rational...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6272064 - 11/11/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

What are you saying? :evil: I can't handle irrationality.

I can, just ask Veritas.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Icelander]
    #6272162 - 11/11/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

rational
rationed
ration
measure
mesured
too small
too big
just right
it's all pattern matching.
but the appearance of logic, or rationality is role-playing
like maybe SPOCK or Sherlock Holmes.

elementary, dear Watson.

monkey see monkey do.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6272188 - 11/11/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Illogical, Captain.

My favorite Star Trek movie is "The Search for Spock," when he reexperiences adolescence, and is immersed in irrational, hormonal chaos.  :eek:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6274497 - 11/12/06 05:45 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

rational
rationed
ration
measure
mesured
too small
too big
just right
it's all pattern matching.




I think you hit an important point here. Non-rational is beyond patterning if you can get my drift.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Icelander]
    #6274502 - 11/12/06 05:50 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"I can't handle irrationality."

Another important point. We are not discussing irrationality...that is merely being inconsistent with reason..which serves no purpose here. We are discussing non-rational...that is the total absence of rationality or reason. The actual definition in the dictionary for it is:
obtained through intuition rather than from reasoning or observation
I think this sheds a lot of light on the matter. Intuition...gut level "reasoning" that is what I am getting at with my last complex and nearly indecipherable sentence a few posts back.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (11/12/06 06:01 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6274578 - 11/12/06 07:05 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

rational
rationed
ration
measure
mesured
too small
too big
just right
it's all pattern matching.




I think you hit an important point here. Non-rational is beyond patterning if you can get my drift.




clearly I failed to deliver my point well enough:

Rational thought is pattern matching and non-rational thought is pattern matching.

Rational thought routines, however, include the pretense of validity (rife with cues of rationing).

Non-rational is not beyond patterning,
but it is beyond the pretense of validity. (non-consensual, non-emulative of SPOCK or of NEWTON, or of SOCRATES, or of THE POPE)

the moment you make something special out of it, it loses it's negative charm.

(intuition is pattern matching without the extra style filters, e.g. unchecked for style of SPOCK or of NEWTON, or of SOCRATES, or of THE POPE)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Making Use of Non-Rational Experience [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6274584 - 11/12/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"intuition is pattern matching without the extra style filters"

I agree. That is a very valid way of looking at it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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