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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineWasteland
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Chaos Versus Order
    #6086175 - 09/21/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I believe the universe to be a chaotically created (as in randomly occuring without divine intervention) system of processes. Such as the process of singular cells evolving into more complex creatures.

I've noticed a few members of the shroomery saying that the universe is either entirely chaos or entirely order?

Could someone explain this position to me, and possibly furhtering my understanding if I am in fact ignorant of it all?


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The Mad Shroomer said:
People are always promising the apocalypse. They never deliver. :frown:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6086231 - 09/21/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Just like if you try to place dots randomly and chaotically on a piece of paper, without any order, eventually you will discover that it is impossible. There will always be some order to a chaotic system of placing dots, even if you try your hardest for there not to be any. The fact remains that in nature, order and symmetry manifest directly out of chaos. But that isnt to say that chaos itself has no cause. The causes of an infinitely chaotic system such as this universe, are of course infinite in number and complexity.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6086279 - 09/21/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> I've noticed a few members of the shroomery saying that the universe is either entirely chaos or entirely order?

I would claim that it is both entirely chaos and entirely ordered... the beauty of paradox.  :smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6086284 - 09/21/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There is a lot more space in the universe than stuff in the space. How can emptyness be chaotic?

Awareness is like that space, empty. Stuff fills it up, but it doesn't change. That's just stuff passing through. It is just empty.

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: thatiAM]
    #6086551 - 09/21/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The way that things manifest from emptiness appear to be chaotic. Out of this chaos comes order. Order is that which gives symetry to our universe. This is'nt an argument as to the "nature" of the universe, but more of an observation of how things appear.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6086613 - 09/21/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The Myth of Ichabod


There once was a huge boulder, perched precariously, on the edge of a cliff. For hundreds of years this boulder was there, rocking and swaying, but always keeping its balance just perfectly. But one year, there happened to be a sever windstorm; severe enough it was, to topple the boulder from its majestic height and dash it to the bottom of the cliff, far far below. Needless to say, the boulder was smashed into many pieces. Where it hit, the ground was covered with a carpet of pebbles--some small and some large--but pebbles and pebbles and more pebbles for as far as you could walk in an hour.

One day, after all this, a young man by the name of Ichabod happened on the area. Being a fellow of keen mind and observational powers, naturally he was quite astounded to see so many stones scattered so closely on the ground. Now Ichabod was very much interested in the nature of things, and he spent the whole afternoon looking at pebbles, and measuring the size of pebbles, and feeling the weight of pebbles, and just pondering about pebbles in general.

He spent the night there, not wanting to lose this miraculous find, and awoke the next morning full of enthusiasm. He spent many days on his carpet of stones.

Eventually he noticed a very strange thing. There were three rather large stones on the carpet and they formed a triangle--almost (but not quite) equilateral. He was amazed. Looking further he found four very white stones that were arranged in a lopsided square. Then he saw that by disregarding one white stone and thinking of that grey stone a foot over instead, it was a perfect square! And if you chose this stone, and that stone, and that one, and that one and that one you have a pentagon as large as the triangle. And here a small hexagon. And there a square partially inside of the hexagon. And a decagon. And two triangles inter-locked. And a circle. And a smaller circle within the circle. And a triangle within that which has a red stone, a grey stone and a white stone.

Ichabod spent many hours finding many designs that became more and more complicated as his powers of observation grew with practice. Then he began to log his designs in a large leather book; and as he counted designs and described them, the pages began to fill as the sun continued to return.

He had begun his second ledger when a friend came by. His friend was a poet and also interested in the nature of things.

"My friend," cried Ichabod, "come quickly! I have discovered the most
wondrous thing in the universe." The poet hurried over to him, quite anxious to see what it was.

Ichabod showed him the carpet of stones...but the poet only laughed and said "It's nothing but scattered rocks!"

"But look," said Ichabod, 'see this triangle and that [square] and that and that." And he proceeded to show his friend the harvest of his many days study. When the poet saw the designs he turned to the ledgers and by the time he was finished with these, he too was overwhelmed.

He began to write poetry about the marvelous designs. And as he wrote and contemplated he became sure that the designs must mean something. Such order and beauty is too monumental to be senseless. And the designs were there, Ichabod had showed him [that.]

The poet went back to the village and read his new poetry. And all who heard him went to the cliff to see first hand the [carpet] of designs. And all returned to the village to spread the word. Then as the enthusiasm grew there developed a group of those who love beauty and nature, all of whom went to live right at the Designs themselves. Together they wanted to see every design that was there.

Some wrote ledger about just triangles. Others described the circles. Others concentrated on red colored stones--and they happened to be the first to see designs springing from outside the carpet. They, and some others, saw designs everywhere they went.

"How blind we have been," they said.

The movement grew and grew and grew. And all who could see the designs knew that they had to have been put there by a Great Force. "Nothing but a Great Force," said the philosophers, "could create this immense beauty!"

"Yes," said the world, "nothing but a god could create such magnificent order. Nothing but a God."

And that was the day that God was born. And ever since then, all men have known Him for His infinite power and all men have loved Him for His infinite wisdom.

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OfflineWasteland
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6086667 - 09/21/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Nice story, Mushman.


--------------------
The Mad Shroomer said:
People are always promising the apocalypse. They never deliver. :frown:

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6087153 - 09/21/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

from chaos comes order, and vice versa. They are similar in concept, yet opposite in degrees.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: thatiAM]
    #6087260 - 09/21/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thatiAM said:
There is a lot more space in the universe than stuff in the space.  How can emptyness be chaotic?

Awareness is like that space, empty.  Stuff fills it up, but it doesn't change.  That's just stuff passing through.  It is just empty.




The Bountiful Fullness of Empty Space  :wink:


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6087313 - 09/21/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm, cool!

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6087419 - 09/21/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No need for confusion. Chaos and order are the same.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Wasteland]
    #6087429 - 09/21/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wasteland said:
I believe the universe to be a chaotically created (as in randomly occuring without divine intervention) system of processes. Such as the process of singular cells evolving into more complex creatures.

I've noticed a few members of the shroomery saying that the universe is either entirely chaos or entirely order?

Could someone explain this position to me, and possibly furhtering my understanding if I am in fact ignorant of it all?




Chaos organize order...
Order makes a substance to disorder.. thus, Chaos..

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6087430 - 09/21/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Non-dual :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6087740 - 09/21/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
No need for confusion. Chaos and order are the same.




There is always a need for confusion. The beauty of chaos. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Icelander]
    #6087775 - 09/21/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"There is always a need for confusion"

You are right....confusion is a must. Without confusion where would I be?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6087812 - 09/21/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Somewhere besides the south. :shocked:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Icelander]
    #6087825 - 09/21/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree....without confusion I would have been fully content with my lot in life from day one. I would never want to change.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6087830 - 09/21/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well I think you're a little confused.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Icelander]
    #6087852 - 09/21/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

probably...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Chaos Versus Order [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6087861 - 09/21/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

you are one of the least confused people I know. But of course that's not saying too much. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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