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 quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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 the pope 
#6070037 - 09/17/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Pressure mounting on Pope over Islam comments
3:41 PM September 17
Pressure is mounting on Pope Benedict to issue a personal apology when he makes his first public appearance since his comments about Islam sparked Muslim fury across the world.
The Vatican said on Saturday the Pope was sorry Muslims had been offended and that his comments had been misconstrued, but Muslim countries and religious groups remained angry at what they said portrayed Islam as a religion tainted with violence.
Morocco withdrew its ambassador to the Vatican, calling the Pope's remarks "offensive", while Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood - the main opposition force in the country's parliament - said the statement issued by the Vatican was not enough.
"We feel he has committed a grave error against us and that this mistake will only be removed through a personal apology," said the Brotherhood's deputy leader Mohammed Habib.
The Pope, leader of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics, was due to give his regular Sunday blessing - known as the Angelus - in St Peter's Square, an occasion often used by pontiffs to express the church's views on current affairs.
Muslim anger erupted when the Pope made a speech in Germany on Tuesday referring to criticism of the Prophet Mohammad by 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who said everything Mohammad brought was evil "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
Using the terms "jihad" and "holy war", the 79-year-old Pope said violence was "incompatible with the nature of God".
Vatican statement
But the Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said in a statement the Pope "had absolutely no intention" of presenting Emperor Manuel's opinions on Islam as his own.
"The Holy Father thus sincerely regrets that certain passages of his address could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful," Cardinal Bertone said in a statement, only a day after taking over as "deputy pope".
He said the Pope, elected 17 months ago, confirmed "his respect and esteem for those who profess Islam" and hoped his words would be understood in their "correct meaning".
The academic speech was meant as a "a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come," said Cardinal Bertone.
The backlash over the the Pope's comments has cast doubt on his planned visit to Turkey in November.
Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, a pious Muslim with roots in political Islam, said before the Vatican statement the Pope's comments were "ugly and unfortunate" and should be withdrawn.
Yemen's president publicly denounced the pontiff and five churches - only one of them Catholic - were attacked in the West Bank, although no one was hurt.
Egypt's Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's envoy to Cairo to express "extreme regret" at Benedict's speech.
But Chancellor Angela Merkel and other German politicians defended his comments, saying he had been misunderstood.
"It was an invitation to dialogue between religions," Ms Merkel told the mass circulation Bild newspaper in an interview.
Vatican insiders and diplomats say the Pope may have mixed up his new role with his former posts as a theologian and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, when as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger he was known as a disciplinarian.
Angry Muslim leaders flung what they saw as allegations of violence back at the West.
"How can (the Pope) imply that Muslims are the creators of terrorism in the world while it is the followers of Christianity who have been aggressive against every country of the Islamic world?" prominent Saudi cleric Salman al-Odeh said. "Who attacked Afghanistan and who invaded Iraq?"
-Reuters
the second paragraph is a hoot
how dare he tell his followers that islam is tainted with violence as if that were true
its none of islams business what another religion believes or preaches,just like they ram down our throats about how we're infidel unbelievers who 'don't understand islam'
whats that story about a plank in their eyes again?
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 wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6073165 - 09/18/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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here is what he said that got them all wound up this time. read it for yourself and remind me again that the ROP'ers are not a bunch of nuts.
"I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on — perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara — by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between — as they were called — three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point — itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole — which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.
In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that sura 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Muslim R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry."
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: the pope [Re: wilshire]
#6073258 - 09/18/06 07:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Italian nun murdered in Somalia
10:00 PM September 17
Gunmen have shot dead an elderly Italian nun at a hospital in the Islamist-controlled Somali capital.
Witnesses say the unidentified attackers entered the Austrian-funded SOS Hospital in southern Mogadishu and opened fire before escaping in the ensuing confusion.
"They came into the compound and shot the nun and then ran away," one medical worker said.
The nun, believed to be in her 70s, was one of the longest-serving foreign members of the Catholic Church in Somalia, a former Italian colony.
The attack has come amid fury among Somalia's powerful Islamist movement over comments made by Pope Benedict XVI, deemed insulting to Islam.
On Friday, a prominent hardline Mogadishu cleric called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill the pontiff for his remarks.
"Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim," Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.
"We call on all Islamic communities across the world to take revenge on the baseless critic called the Pope."
- AFP
i wonder what the idiots who love islam here think of that?
not really i know,theyd be cheering allah akbahmothafukers
we cant blame them tho,theyre still aching from slavery 
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6073452 - 09/18/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"The Basra demonstration came as an al Qaeda linked militant group vowed a war against the "worshippers of the cross" in response to the pope's speech.
"We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya," said an Internet statement by the Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella group led by Iraq's branch of al Qaeda, according to the Reuters news agency.
"We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. ... God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen," said the statement."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17/pope.islam/index.html?section=cnn_topstories
what on earth is wrong with these people?
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guri
Master of theimprobablitydrive
Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 576
Loc: PNWish.
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: the pope [Re: wilshire]
#6074038 - 09/18/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i just find it ironic that the pope quotes somebody saying that islam is spread by violence and that is the use of violence is incompatable with god. then what happens in the islamic community? basicly people saying "no thats not true you dont understand us, btw lets kill anybody who disrespects the prophit and anybody else who is christian"
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"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6074450 - 09/18/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I tell you what. If I will see someone raping a woman or seeing someone doing some fascist evildeeds, I will confront him with my sword, which I always carry in my car and myself. For the defence and sake of myself and others.
It's almost becomming that I am going to seek out those 'opportunities'.
So what ?
I mean, violence can be an adequate mean. Judge the adequateness.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: the pope [Re: guri]
#6074502 - 09/18/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
guri said:
i just find it ironic that the pope quotes somebody saying that islam is spread by violence and that is the use of violence is incompatable with god. then what happens in the islamic community? basicly people saying "no thats not true you dont understand us, btw lets kill anybody who disrespects the prophit and anybody else who is christian"
Rather crudely put but accurate nonetheless.
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN 
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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it is rather ironic.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Yeah. I'm not a violent asshole and if you say I am I'm gonna punch you right in the mouth. Bitch.
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BrAiN
Art Fag
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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I spread my religion by violence? HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT! Just for that.. you must convert to Islame before I lop your head off!!!
True.. but... again I think the extremists are still just a small group. The pope never should have said this... or at least he should have put it in context and said "this particular group of muslims" does this.
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: the pope [Re: BrAiN]
#6075666 - 09/18/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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it wouldnt matter,noone is allowed to say anything about islam at all according to them,it is a fact islam is a violent murderous religion and always has been,most moderates hide behind their fanatics and only complain about our reactions to that violence
go alone and ask a group of moderate muslim youths if they think islams fanatical killers are wrong,take a gun too,you'll probably need it
then again go with a few people and try to find a lone muslim moderate and ask him the same,i'm sure he'll agree with us reluctantly
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6076012 - 09/18/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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apparently
"The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…"
was just way over the top. the irony is so thick you can barely see your hand in front of your face.
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zorbman
blarrr
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6076082 - 09/18/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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From my limited study of the Islamic faith Mohammad's sayings have been added to and altered over the years, probably in an effort to serve politics and power. I think what the Pope said was probably correct, but at the same time he should not have said it. In the same way that you don't call an overweight person "fat".
He certainly is no Pope John Paul II.
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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: the pope [Re: wilshire]
#6076112 - 09/18/06 09:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yep,its not the popes fault that mohamed was illiterate and his islamic teachings have finally backed his followers into a wall
theyd kill god himself if they could
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: the pope [Re: zorbman]
#6076151 - 09/18/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
I think what the Pope said was probably correct, but at the same time he should not have said it. In the same way that you don't call an overweight person "fat".
Diplomacy is a highly underrated skill.
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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he's not a politician
maybe we should be diplomatic though and amend the ten commandments,just the one about 'thou shalt not kill' will do but ofcourse we moderate christians wont follow it and if we do we just missintrepreted it
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6076262 - 09/18/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
quiver said:
he's not a politician
Yes he is. The vatican is an independent nation, and he is the leader of it.
Quote:
maybe we should be diplomatic though and amend the ten commandments,just the one about 'thou shalt not kill' will do but ofcourse we moderate christians wont follow it and if we do we just missintrepreted it
So what you're saying is that you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, right?
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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and a thumbsup and lame agreement is adding to the thread?
geez youre so well educated and from such superior stock arent ya,bookworm
it's a religion,you are arrogantly wrong from this point of view
if we called catholics a nation we'd be labelled a racist cult and hate listed like islam
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: the pope [Re: quiver]
#6076413 - 09/18/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i better add that rc is written on my birth certificate but i dont practise it not that i havent thought about it and thought i've needed its guidance,sometimes ive wondered thats all,i just dont trust priests i guess, and yes i've prayed to god and jesus and st paul and mary at times in my life and it didnt hurt me,i'm convinced it helped actually
crucify me 
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: the pope [Re: zorbman]
#6076488 - 09/18/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
I think what the Pope said was probably correct, but at the same time he should not have said it. In the same way that you don't call an overweight person "fat".
But the Pope *didn't* say anything. He read a quote.
Are our leaders longer allowed to read quotes in public?
It's cool if Islamic leaders publicly state the "necessity" to wipe the state of Israel off the map, but if the Pope reads a historical quote publicly, well that's WAY over the edge.
The reality is that the Islamic world has done nothing but back itself into a proverbial corner for the past 20 years. They have mismanaged and oppressed their own people, and they're running out of others to blame. It's understandable that they'd lash out at anyone they could, including the Pope, but that doesn't make it right.
Quote:
zorbman said:
He certainly is no Pope John Paul II.
True, he's contemplating the possibility of married couples using condoms to prevent one partner from contracting HIV, something JP II repeatedly stated would never be acceptable.
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