Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Offlineshroomneb1
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 13
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Reincarnation
    #5857174 - 07/14/06 07:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Milarepa is one of the most widely known Tibetan Saints. In a superhuman effort, he rose above the miseries of his younger life and with the help of his Guru, Marpa the Translator, took to a solitary life of meditation until he had achieved the pinnacle of the enlightened state, never to be born again into the Samsara (whirlpool of life and death) of worldly existence."

What is it with Buddhists and reincarnation?
They all think that we need to do what that monk did.

They are born, and they realise their life sucks, somethings missing, so instead of doing something about this they come up with bullshit stories that they come here not for pleasure but to reach enlightenment and stop constant reincarnation? And after you stopped reincarnating, what then? Dont you wonna come back to earth again?

I am sorry but i dont really agree with that and neither does Kabbalah. What Kabbalah teaches you is that you come here to find yourself and live live to the fullest.

Tibetans say life is a chor and you must do something so that you dont come back here again in your next life! Thats rubbish!

Also Tibetans think that your whole existance is linear. Your born you live you die then you go on somewhere then you get born again...

I think that theory was brilliantly looked at in Waking Life where the woman says that now there are twice more people than there were 50 years ago so where do all these new souls come from? And the man asks do you think re incarnation does not exists and she says she thinks reincarnation is a poetic expression and we are all living and sharing experiences together or something like that.

Kabbalah teaches you is that we come to earth to live. What Kabbalah also teaches you is that each soul can have many simulteneous incarnations at the same time.

Its not like you live then you die then you reincarnate, but rather there are many incarnations of your soul living on this planet at this moment. And they are all contributing to your oversoul to speak about it like that. And that leaves more questions than answers.

Such as what happens after you die? Which one of you that live here at the same time is going to be chosen for the next life?

Whats your view on reincarnation?

Edited by shroomneb1 (07/14/06 07:51 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 18 days
Re: Reincarnation [Re: shroomneb1]
    #5857208 - 07/14/06 07:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Incarnating..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Reincarnation [Re: shroomneb1]
    #5857287 - 07/14/06 08:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shroomneb1 said:
"Milarepa is one of the most widely known Tibetan Saints. In a superhuman effort, he rose above the miseries of his younger life and with the help of his Guru, Marpa the Translator, took to a solitary life of meditation until he had achieved the pinnacle of the enlightened state, never to be born again into the Samsara (whirlpool of life and death) of worldly existence."

What is it with Buddhists and  reincarnation?
They all think that we need to do what that monk did.


Firstly Milarepa was not a monk, he was an acstetic Yogi. and secondly, Busddhist teachers generally do not recommend you go and live the rest of your life meditating in a cave! Instead most recommend trying to integrates ones practice with everyday life. :lol:


They are born, and they realise their life sucks, somethings missing, so instead of doing something about this they come up with bullshit stories that they come here not for pleasure but to reach enlightenment and stop constant reincarnation? And after you stopped reincarnating, what then? Dont you wonna come back to earth again?


Umm no, not true at all. The path of Tantric Buddhism is mainly about applying, tranforming and integrating with all experiences, not rejecting anything. Enlightenment is said to be the supreme bliss. It is said the Bodhisattavas manifest in our world again and again for the benefit of all beings, so yes, generally they do want to come back to earth again, but not in the usual karmic uncontrolled, feather in the wind kind of way.


I am sorry but i dont really agree with that and neither does Kabbalah. What Kabbalah teaches you is that you come here to find yourself and live live to the fullest.

Thats basically what Buddhism teaches, how to fulfil your human potential, which is what living your life to the fullest is all about. Your assumptions and misconceptions about Buddhism are outstanding.

Tibetans say life is a chor and you must do something so that you dont come back here again in your next life! Thats rubbish!

Umm, ive never heard a Tibetan say that ever! Many Tibetan Buddhists take the view that you need to go beyond limitations and discover the non-duality of Samasara and Nirvana within your own being.

Also Tibetans think that your whole existance is linear. Your born you live you die then you go on somewhere then you get born again...

I think that theory was brilliantly looked at in Waking Life where the woman says that now there are twice more people than there were 50 years ago so where do all these new souls come from? And the man asks do you think re incarnation does not exists and she says she thinks reincarnation is a poetic expression and we are all living and sharing experiences together or something like that.

That view is limited as your not taking into consderation the vastness of the universe. Rebirth isnt limitied to just this planet, nor this species. Consdier the vast ammount of insects and animals living and dying on this planet. Even considering just this you can see how numbers in human population could fluctuate easily. Now  expand this view even further to consider the infinity of this universe, the infinite number of beings, and the vast complexity of karmic causality. Now you have a view of reincarnation more consistant with Buddhist thought.

As far as multiple incarnations are concerned. Within Tibetan Buddhism there is considerations of different levels of bodhisattva, these levels are called bhumis. It is written that one who attains even the first bhumi can manifest at least 10 different incarnations to benefit sentitent beings.







--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (07/14/06 10:11 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIriebuddha
.

Registered: 06/30/06
Posts: 85
Loc: .
Re: Reincarnation [Re: Sinbad]
    #5857496 - 07/14/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well said, Sinbad :smile:


--------------------
.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Reincarnation [Re: Iriebuddha]
    #5857554 - 07/14/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

so many thing sto clarify about their perspective.

first of all..... if you stack up all the pleasure in your life, all the mundane neutrality, all the slight negativity, and all the pain....

the pleaure looses by far. super rich people suffer. super poor people suffer. everyone suffers.

this can be seen as nihilism but it can also be seen as a way to work on uprooting the very nature of reality, so that you can live in it TRANSFORMED and FREE.

for instance let's look at drinking. everyone thinks drinking is fun, but the hangover lasts a lot longer, and alcohol absolutely destroys your body.

sex. sex can be considered holy and one of the highest pleasures there is, but child birth is tremendous pain, there are STDs, and sexuality for the sake of pacifying some other desires and issues can only lead to being drained, especially if you are a male. an addiction and an escape from reality, similar to drug use.
[healthy reciprocal and loving sex is allowed in Buddhism unless you become a nun/monk]
it is not that Buddhists are against pleasure, it is that they are against suffering, and they realize how intricately suffering and pleasure are interwoven.

my dog has this neurotic obsession with having this certain area of hers scratched, and because she wants it so much, she suffers a lot and whines and cries if you stop scratching it or don't scratch it at all.

some people are so obsessed with money that they will gamble all of it away just to catch that fleeting pleasure of hitting a jockpot here and there.

ultimately, things shouldn't be colored.
you shouldn't salivate at the notion of a beer while recoiling at the notion of doing chores.

you should be like "oh, beer, hmm it's been a while... sure i'll have one" and "oh, time to do the chores, this is fine." they should all be grey, neutral, instead of colored in with suffering and passion and craving and aversion.


They simply seek to purify the mind of all delusions, so that they can reconnect to God, to the Universe, to ONE, to their true nature, so that every single thing they do is peaceful, every single thing they do is pleasurable, and every single action is done without delusion, seen for what it really is, and all causes of suffering are forever uprooted and abandoned.

you really have to liken it kind of to infancy. everything is new in infancy. pounding your fists on a keyboard brings great joy. MOVING YOUR OWN BODY brings extreme joy. everything IS the way it IS but now our attention is startified in a million different pieces and raped by a dysfunctional society.

when we drink tea, we aren't drinking tea in such a way that we ARE the tea, we are drinking tea while reading the newspaper.

and we aren't really reading the newspaper, we are thinking about what we have to do when we go to work.

and when we drive the car we aren't really driving the car, we are fantasizing or rocking out to music. but we aren't really rocking out to music because what if the boss fires us, or what if that slow old person up on the road isn't going to speed up and we have to pass him? damn him, we're so impatient and we hate to be delayed..... we have to set a pace, have to be somewhere.... get the fuck out of my way already! ohhhh why do i have to be at work?

and when we're at home.... we don't sleep because we think ohhhh why do i have to be at work.

and when we're at work we're like mannnn i could go for a beer...

things like that.

and so we are never really truely immersed in the present moment, like we were as infants and young children... for to dwell in the present without delusion, judgement, application, and endless analyzation is to be free, to be reintroduced to bliss, to the natural state of freedom.

this is why they say existence is suffering. there is a true nature, a pristine conscoiusness, a nirvana, in which we all have access to, which simply IS and it is not as if you have to disappear to be in nirvana, boddhisattvas and buddhas can have access to these states of consciousness while still having bodies to do work to help others... though completely surrender to bliss is completely destruction of any ego or body...

but it's more like humans are tricked into forgetting that they have acesss to heaven, and so they choose to live a life of suffering, where nothing they do is pointful or meaningful because in the end they die confused, alone, and angry at the IRS.

waking life puts it, that a great demon has tricked us into forgetting that the return of Christ is immanent, that God is constantly asking us "do you want to be free?" and we keep saying "no, not yet... maybe later." and then that african man, the tall one, talking about how one surrender leads to a huge chain of surenders into divinity....

the "holy moment" scene.

Buddhism is not bullshit, you just don't share in the proper understanding.

beyond any superstitions it's basically this:
existence is inherently suffering and dispassion.
you can be free of it.
purify your mind, actions, thoughts, deeds, etc, and regain mindfulness, and you can free yourself from suffering.
the greatest cause of suffering is desire (in the sense of craving, pniing away for things...... becuase true bliss and unison is a state of complete acceptance and grace, doesn't matter if you're bill gates or a shoe shiner, you just surrender continuously).

basically they say, we are denying ourselves paradise because of delusions.

you can walk on this earth free, and in heaven..... and you can walk on it in hell. and you can walk on it deluded.

it's not necessarily about blinking out of existence, though that is the ultimate state of nirvana.

as for reBIRTH (reINCARNATION means you have choice in who you come back as).... if you die disconnected from God/divinity..... shrouded in ignorance, as your ego is stripped away, a lot of defilements exist deep in your mind, things you have done that you have not been able to forgive and transcend, delusions you have held firmly too, bad habits you have praised and practiced continously, and because the mind is unwilling to let go of them, they have an inertia to them and they will carry on and reassemble into an entirely new reality, just like how dreams are formed.

if you step on someone's toe and they are so so upset at you and start crying because they were having a really bad day and you feel so guilty about it, and you go to bed, that action has inertia in your mind, your mind cannot just accept it and let it dissipate, it keeps dwelling on it, traps it in a net.... so even after you ego dies in delta sleep, your mind is still troubled by this, and just as if you have died and are being born again, you come into a reality based upon the fruits, the karma, of the toe stepping, and you DREAM about it, your dream world is entirely created merely by that action.

in this way, karma transfers and creates rebirths... and in this way, the ultimate freedom is to be alive right here, right now, and so free that you don't have to die again, and you don't have to be born again...... and the next best thing is to purify your soul and spirit enough so that when you die, you die in grace and humility and will go upwards and progress more.

they, I believe, view meditation and good deeds as excellent ways of purifying even the worst of karma...... you aren't completely doomed, we're all guilty of things. we're here as a human to purify as much as we can, and be as free as we can.

and that ultimately DOES mean living life to the fullest and embracing every second of it.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/14/06 10:32 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Reincarnation [Re: shroomneb1]
    #5857627 - 07/14/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Dont you wonna come back to earth again?

Well I'm going to have to disagree with one very important concept you've presented. That is the idea of a 'self' or a 'soul'. One of the three Dharma Seals is anatman or no-self. The Buddha taught this, along with impermanence and Nirvana as the three seals of the Dharma (although sometimes it's considered to be 1, 2, or 4 seals).

Nothing is permanent, and this is a directly observable fact. How and why should you be permanent? And what, exactly, is it that is permanent? Up until a few decades ago, I didn't exist. The causes and conditions for my birth were not yet in place. Once they were in place, then the necessary elements came together and I was born.

If you look at what you consider to be your self, you'll notice that it is made up entirely of non-self elements. There is nothing in me that can be called a self; some entity that is in some way separate from the rest of the universe. I do not exist, and so here I am :wink:

Anyways, back to reincarnation, since there is no self or soul to reincarnate, it simply doesn't happen.

You may ask then what of all the talk of past lives and future lives and such. Well first, the question doesn't fit the case. Second, it makes sense to me that the elements that I am composed of existed before they came together to form me. My past lives then would be whatever form those elements were in, and my future lives will be what forms the elements that composed me take once I die.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Reincarnation [Re: leery11]
    #5858446 - 07/14/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The Teaching of Dependent Origination

12 Links of Dependent Origination
1) ignorance, avidyā, avijjā;
2) volitional actions, samskāra, sankhāra;
3) consciousness, vijñāna, viññāna;
4) material & physical phenomena or individuality, nāma-rūpa;
5) six sense faculties, sad-āyatana, salāyatana;
6) contact, sparśa, phassa;
7) sensation, vedanā, vedanā;
8) desire, trsnā, tanhā
9) clinging, upādāna, upādāna
10) becoming, bhava, bhava.
11) birth, jāti, jāti.
12) old age & death, jarā-marana, jarā-marana.

From the Samyutta-nikāya:

"Monks! What is dependent origination? On ignorance depend actions. On actions depends consciousness. On consciousness depend name and form. On name and form depend the six sense organs. On the six sense organs depends contact. On contact depends feeling. On feeling depends craving. On craving depends grasping. On grasping depends becoming. On becoming depends birth. On birth depend old age and death, grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation, and worry. Thus does the whole aggregation of suffering arise. Monks! This is called arising. However, if there is no ignorance, actions cease. With the cessation of actions, consciousness ceases. With the cessation of consciousness, name and form cease.

With the cessation of name and form, the six sense organs cease. With the cessation of the six sense organs, contact ceases. With the cessation of contact, feeling ceases. With the cessation of feeling, craving ceases. With the cessation of craving, grasping ceases. With the cessation of grasping, becoming ceases. With the cessation of becoming, birth ceases. With the cessation of birth, old age and death, grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation, and worry cease. Thus does the whole aggregation of suffering cease."


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC)
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
giza 6,021 91 03/01/11 08:37 AM
by DisoRDeR
* Judgement through reincarnation waui 1,402 6 03/24/07 06:19 PM
by Basilides
* reincarnation
( 1 2 3 all )
CleverName 6,567 52 11/10/02 01:01 PM
by Shroomism
* Yet another reincarnation thread
( 1 2 3 all )
amuzakat 2,639 44 12/06/10 08:11 AM
by desert father
* Is reincarnation the most likely afterlife according to Occam's razor?
( 1 2 all )
AngryPhil 3,756 39 06/18/11 11:12 PM
by xFrockx
* Reincarnation
( 1 2 3 all )
Poid 3,522 52 04/17/10 07:50 PM
by deCypher
* Human Reincarnation(Question for Shroomism) silversoul7 1,863 18 03/22/04 04:38 PM
by louco
* Reincarnation and Christianity
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Jellric 7,643 63 12/04/04 05:31 PM
by Fucknuckle

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,262 topic views. 1 members, 14 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.044 seconds spending 0.025 seconds on 14 queries.