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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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'Debating' the Iraq War
    #5763907 - 06/18/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

'Debating' the Iraq War
By Justin Raimondo

Note: This article is replete with embedded links that, in the interest of time, I have not included in this post. I highly recommend perusing them at the source above.

The Republican offensive in support of the Iraq war should have crashed shortly after launching: unfortunately, they had some essential allies who helped fuel their shaky effort – the Democrats. As one news report about the House debate put it:

"In both the House and Senate, Democrats appear to be divided into three camps. Some want troops to leave Iraq this year. Others object to setting any kind of timetable. A number of them want the United States to start redeploying forces by year's end but don't want to set a date when all troops should be out."

But the Republicans, too, are divided. Rep. Wayne Gilchrest (R-Md.) complains that the administration has unnecessarily politicized the war and the debate, as it did in November when Republicans put together a one-sentence resolution calling for withdrawal from Iraq – and turned it into a political circus during which Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-Ohio) smeared Marine veteran Rep. Jack Murtha (D-Pa.) as a "coward." "It was ludicrous," Gilchrest said. "It had nothing to do with saving lives. It had nothing to do with the war. It was one-upmanship against the Democrats." The Washington Post reports:

"That sentiment spurred Gilchrest and four other Republicans to break with their leadership this spring and sign on to a Democratic petition pushing for debate. Boehner pledged to do so weeks ago."

The fulfillment of that pledge came in the form of a Republican resolution that sets a new standard for political and intellectual dishonesty. In language redolent of a Soviet-era proclamation from the Presidium, the non-binding statement starts out by declaring:

"The United States and its allies are engaged in a Global War on Terror, a long and demanding struggle against an adversary that is driven by hatred of American values and that is committed to imposing, by the use of terror, its repressive ideology throughout the world."

Yes, we are engaged in a global war, although it is not a "war on terror" – terror being a technique, rather than a specific adversary – but a war against al-Qaeda. What that war is "driven" by has nothing to do with "American values," whatever those might be, and everything to do with American foreign policy – and most especially, at the moment, resentment throughout the Muslim world of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. This nonsense that they hate us because of the Bill of Rights, or because of our increasingly sleazy cultural mores, is an article of faith with the War Party: it lets them see themselves as Western knights clad in the shining armor of democracy, rationality, and modernity. The only problem is that it just isn't true. As Michael Scheuer points out in his best-selling Imperial Hubris,

"The fundamental flaw in our thinking about Bin Laden is that 'Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than what we do.' Muslims are bothered by our modernity, democracy, and sexuality, but they are rarely spurred to action unless American forces encroach on their lands. It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society."

Bin Laden is not shy about proclaiming his war aims, and there has been no lack of pronouncements from al-Qaeda on this score. Again and again they have declared their grievances: Madonna videos and miniskirts are not among them. Instead, bin Laden and his cohorts are driven by the U.S. military presence in the Persian Gulf, and America's unconditional support for Israel and its apparent indifference to the plight of the Palestinians. Add to this Washington's support for Arab tyrannies, such as Hosni Mubarak's Egypt (the second largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid), the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and constant American pressure on client regimes in the Middle East to keep oil below the real global market price, and the litany of al-Qaeda's talking points is complete.


In light of this, the House resolution is not only wrong, but dangerously deceptive: if we don't understand the real war aims of the enemy, how can we possibly hope to win? Yet "victory" in the "global war on terror" is precisely what the resolution claims to support: ignorance, however, especially the sort of self-imposed blindness exemplified by this administration, can only lead to defeat. And that is precisely where we are headed in Iraq.

"It is essential" – the GOP resolution-writers proclaim – "to the security of the American people and to world security that the United States, together with its allies, take the battle to the terrorists and to those who provide them assistance."

But where, exactly, are the terrorists? They weren't in Iraq until we invaded: now they have carved out a niche for themselves as the most intractably violent of the various insurgent factions. That al-Qaeda has no geographical nexus, no central headquarters or territory it largely controls, is precisely the problem in combating it. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with al-Qaeda, and, indeed, was not aimed at al-Qaeda: we did it simply because, it the words of war architect and former DoD big shot Paul Wolfowitz, it was "doable."

The House resolution is a hodgepodge of hastily strung-together assertions, bragging, chest-beating, and ludicrous misstatements. It claims, for instance, that "the steadfast resolve of the United States and its partners since September 11, 2001, helped persuade the government of Libya to surrender its weapons of mass destruction." The reality, however, is more prosaic. Libyan despot Muammar Gadhafi had long been trying to make his peace with the West, offering on May 29, 2002, well before the invasion of Iraq, to pay compensation for the downing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. The Bush administration merely took the opportunity to claim a "victory" for its crazed foreign policy by lifting sanctions long after the UN had already done so.

We are informed that the U.S. has achieved some "impressive victories," yet the only one mentioned is the killing of Zarqawi. I'm not sure, however, that we can take all the credit for that one. It looks like he was turned over to the Americans by his own people – and that Osama bin Laden and the Mad Bomber loathed each other. Whether this means a portion of the $25 million reward ought to go, by rights, to al-Qaeda – let's leave that question to the Pentagon's lawyers, and move right along to the rest of this ridiculous resolution:

"Resolved, That the House of Representatives –

"(1) honors all those Americans who have taken an active part in the Global War on Terror, whether as first responders protecting the homeland, as servicemembers overseas, as diplomats and intelligence officers, or in other roles."

The sanctimonious sappiness of our lawmakers – Republicans, in this instance – really is something to behold. Is there anyone on earth who opposes this sentiment? Of course not. So why insert it in the resolution? To create a political package deal in which they can sneak in support for the continued prosecution of an enormously unpopular and increasingly costly war.

After calling for honoring "the sacrifices of the United States Armed Forces and of partners in the Coalition, and of the Iraqis and Afghans who fight alongside them, especially those who have fallen or been wounded in the struggle," as well as "the sacrifices of their families and of others who risk their lives to help defend freedom," comes the punch line:

"(3) declares that it is not in the national security interest of the United States to set an arbitrary date for the withdrawal or redeployment of United States Armed Forces from Iraq;

"(4) declares that the United States is committed to the completion of the mission to create a sovereign, free, secure, and united Iraq."

The clear implication that all dates for withdrawal are necessarily arbitrary is indicative of the sort of intellectual solipsism and even nihilism at the core of the War Party's belief system. In that case, why not stay forever? This, of course, is precisely what these nutbars have in mind. Or else why build an American "embassy" that is more like a small city – and why delete (in committee) the provision in the military appropriations bill forbidding funds for the construction of permanent bases?

I'll spare my readers the Soviet-style onward-soldiers-of-liberation boilerplate that encrusts much of the rest of the text. Suffice to say it is suffused with phrases like "noble struggle," declares its support for "the efforts of the Iraqi and Afghan people to live in freedom," and congratulates the "prime minister" of Iraq for winning the elections, even though he represents a party that is dedicated to imposing Shariah law on the Iraqi people and has been funded for many years by the mullahs of Iran.

Never mind that a Shi'ite theocracy modeled on Iran is what's taking shape in Baghdad – that is, if the country can survive the strenuous efforts of Kurdish separatists and southern secessionists to strangle the nascent postwar Iraqi state in its cradle. Above all, don't dare ask if the alleged "nobility" of this crusade was much in evidence at Haditha. Just remember this: the majority opposes this war, thinks it was a mistake from the beginning, and wants us out as soon as possible. That is what the authors of this resolution are trying desperately to evade and obfuscate, but they won't succeed. The GOP is headed for an election-day disaster due to this war, and we are bound to see a growing number of antiwar Republicans as this becomes all too apparent to the GOP faithful.

Don't believe the hype about the supposed "debate" engendered by this spurious resolution. Our claim to be exporting "democracy" to the rest of the world is disingenuous at best, as our "representatives" in Congress flout the popular will and aid and abet the continuation of the slaughter. This phony resolution was foisted on the Congress by the Republican leadership, at the orders of the White House, and all amendments were forbidden. As Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) put it:

"This really isn't a debate. This is just sort of a political event, and it's very deceptive. It's something like what we've done numerous times, but only it's going to take longer. We've had resolutions like this before designed for political purposes.

"It does a couple things. It says that we want to fight the war on terrorism, at the same time we support the troops. Who's against that? Who could vote against this? Very few will vote against this. But the bottom line is the resolution says we support the status quo, we support the current policy, and there is no desire whatsoever to consider an alternative to this.

"So, it's a political trap that is designed to get everybody to vote for this. And to us, it is not fair. But I wanted to quote a few things here to make my point about the denial of a real debate. The first sentence of the H.Res. 861 says, 'Declaring that the United States will prevail in the global war on terror' – so this is all about terrorism, ignoring the fact that terrorism is a technique, has nothing to do with fighting a war in Iraq. Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist. So are we addressing that subject as well? That's a cop- out. That is not addressing the real problem."

The real problem, as Scheuer puts it, is that the United States is the one "indispensable ally" bin Laden and his followers have. Our foreign policy of unbridled aggression, with our strategic doctrine of "preemption" as its centerpiece, is al-Qaeda's number one recruiting tool. The entire ideology of al-Qaeda, as well as its strategy of targeting the U.S. homeland, is predicated on the idea that the Americans are out to subjugate and destroy the Muslim world. George W. Bush has done everything possible to confirm what was once a vague suspicion and is today a certainty in the minds of many millions.

There is no real debate over the most important issue now facing our nation, and there hasn't been since the administration made it clear that it was hell-bent on war no matter what the "evidence" of Iraq's WMD – and no matter what cost in troops and treasure. The Democrats are hopelessly divided and ineffective due to their extreme cowardice in facing up to the essential issue: do we go, or do we stay? Americans want out in increasing numbers, but Establishment opinion has yet to catch up to the zeitgeist. Most Democrats want to "redeploy," rather than withdraw, to somewhere "over the horizon," i.e., in neighboring Jordan, perhaps, or back to the Persian Gulf sheikdoms, such as Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, etc. They want, in short , to continue the occupation, albeit at a distance, with a "rapid reaction force" ready to race in at a moment's notice the first time the Shi'ite theocracy shows signs of tottering – or of falling completely under Iranian influence.

This won't work for a number of reasons, chief of which is the complete inability of the Iraqi military to fight off the insurgents, never mind its natural tendency to dissolve into its constituent ethno-political components. U.S. troops would no sooner leave than they would be called back forthwith, to stave off the chaos we unleashed by invading and smashing the Iraqi state to smithereens. Like Humpty Dumpty, all the king's horses and all the king's men won't put Iraq back together again. In Baghdad, and Kuwait, our troops are still sitting ducks – living reminders of American regional hegemony, and therefore the target of terrorist attacks.

The withdrawal of our troops from Iraqi soil, even if it was total and occurred tomorrow, would not erase the American footprint from the Middle East – and might even contribute to making it deeper. Those troops would simply relocate someplace nearby – if the Democrats have their way – and the conflict would merely be transferred to another environment, where the same destabilizing effects would soon be felt.

There is only one way to defeat the terrorists who dream of reenacting 9/11 on a larger scale, and that is by draining the sea of popular support in which they swim and multiply. This requires a fundamental change in U.S. foreign policy, a complete turnaround, in which the goal of global hegemony is replaced with the defense of the continental United States – the only proper policy for a constitutional republic such as our own. Defense, not domination, is the hallmark of a rational foreign policy – and until we learn, or rather relearn, that lesson, al-Qaeda will continue to outwit and elude us, while gaining stature in the Muslim world and rallying increasing numbers to its bloody banner.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5764291 - 06/18/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Absolutely excellent article. I dont know if any of you are familiar with 4th generation warfare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Generation_War

but it describes perfectly the wars fought around the globe today

Decentralized combattants
Assymetrical Operations (using tactics that differ greatly)
Adhoc conflict and Moral Conflict (Isolation of the Liberals and Conservatives)

But to me Angalacon, Al Qaeda is just the base of the war, I think the true war is between the Globalists and the Anti-Globalists which is leading to conflicts around the world (MEND vs Shell oil and Daewoo in Nigeria and other examples)

The only way to win a war like this is through Moral superiority, something we had in WWII but we lack now. It will be more of a slow burn.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5764366 - 06/18/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I checked it out. Just so everyone knows, the link is to:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9153

No hint there.

That's fine. Let's just not try to hide who and what wrote this. As to the embedded links, they often refer to themselves and often aren't relevant. For instance, here is the only quote I could find from Gilchrist, and this took 3 degrees of link clicking.

"To me, the administration does not act like there's a war going on. The Congress certainly doesn't act like there's a war going on. If you're raising money to keep the majority, if you're thinking about gay marriage, if you're doing all this other peripheral stuff, what does that say to the guy who's about ready to drive over a land mine?"

Not quite what this guy says. I don't know what Gilchrist is thinking here. Should we shut down the rest of the government. Everything else ignored. No immigration or soc sec or anyhting else?

There has been plenty of debate about the Iraq war. Not being followed does not mean the same thing as not being heard. Unless you're an arrogant ass who thinks he's smarter and more persuausive than anybody who disagrees with him. Like me. Well, maybe not the persuausive part. But definitely the smarter part.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5764513 - 06/18/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I checked it out. Just so everyone knows, the link is to:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9153

No hint there.

That's fine. Let's just not try to hide who and what wrote this.



Excellent job Detective Zappaisgod, you got me.

You seriously think I deliberately tried to hide the link? Hilarious.

Quote:

As to the embedded links, they often refer to themselves and often aren't relevant.



For a rabid conservative you sure are liberal with your use of the word often. But this is immaterial.

Do you have anything to say about the substantive points the article raises, particularly the ones I highlighted in bold?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflinePhred
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5764654 - 06/18/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Raimondo hypothesizes --

Quote:

What that war is "driven" by has nothing to do with "American values," whatever those might be, and everything to do with American foreign policy – and most especially, at the moment, resentment throughout the Muslim world of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. This nonsense that they hate us because of the Bill of Rights, or because of our increasingly sleazy cultural mores, is an article of faith with the War Party: it lets them see themselves as Western knights clad in the shining armor of democracy, rationality, and modernity. The only problem is that it just isn't true.




A baldfaced assertion. Raimondo can't conceive of anyone rationally going to the extremes the Jihadis go to as very godly people who will not countenance ungodly behavior. He himself wouldn't strap a bomb to himself for those reasons, therefore he figures no one else -- even religious fanatics -- would. What he fails to recognize is that religious fanatics don't always act rationally. They do all kinds of other equally atrocious things on a regular basis because they believe Allah expects it of them -- honor killings, stoning of adulteresses, hanging of homosexuals and more. It is no stretch at all to extend that to bombing infidels who are (in their eyes) every bit as licentious in their behavior.

It's like that quote by one of the Jihadis (forget his name now) who, when asked why his particular gang of 'splodeydopes had bombed a French oil tanker rather than an American one, said, "No matter. They're all infidels".

Yet Raimondo seems to have no difficulty believing they would attack the West out of nothing more than a sense of solidarity with their co-religionists. Is solidarity with one's co-religionists even more compelling than solidarity with God? To Raimondo, it apparently is.

Quote:

It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society."




Uh huh. What about Canada's foreign policy? Or Bali's? Morocco's? Egypt's? The Jihadis have carried out terrorist attacks in all those nations and half a dozen more.




Phred


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Phred]
    #5765042 - 06/18/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
What about Canada's foreign policy?




Canada has troops in Afghanistan.

Quote:

Phred said:
Or Bali's?




They were targeting Australians (who have troops in Iraq).

Quote:

Phred said:
Egypt's?




Most of the attacks in recent memory in Egypt have been in tourist areas where Israelis are. That is pretty self-explanatory why the Jihadis would attack them. Any attacks against the Egyptian government are because the Egyptian authorities ruthlessly suppress Islamic militants.

Quote:

Phred said:
The Jihadis have carried out terrorist attacks in all those nations and half a dozen more.




True. And 99% of the time it has been because the host nation (or the civilians around belonged to a nation that) had troops in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The Jihadis aren't blowing up Mexicans nor are they blowing up Brazilians. They either attack Westerners that belong to nations that meddle in foreign countries, their own repressive governments, or local rival ethnic or religious groups. Note that I am not apologizing for them...they are fucking nutbags that deserve to be exterminated. But, most of their terrorist actions are quite clearly explained as being in response to particular actions of other peoples and nations. A few may attack infidels because they are unbelievers...but the bulk of Islamic militants (and their sympathizers) are motivated by perceived aggression and/or greed by Western powers.

I firmly believe that the U.S. would never be attacked again if we were to remove all troops from the Arabian Peninsula, stop giving aid to Israel, and stop meddling in Middle Eastern politics.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5765069 - 06/18/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:


I checked it out. Just so everyone knows, the link is to:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9153

No hint there.

That's fine. Let's just not try to hide who and what wrote this.



Excellent job Detective Zappaisgod, you got me.

You seriously think I deliberately tried to hide the link? Hilarious.

Quote:

As to the embedded links, they often refer to themselves and often aren't relevant.



For a rabid conservative you sure are liberal with your use of the word often. But this is immaterial.

Do you have anything to say about the substantive points the article raises, particularly the ones I highlighted in bold?




How's this for another use of the word often. He often misrepresents facts. For instance the notion that B-L had an issue with US presence in the Gulf. That is factually incorrect. He had issues with the US presence in Saudi Arabia, and SA alone. Until he hired a PR firm (Newsweek) who told him his complaints were too narrow.

Do I think you tried to hide the source of this article? Yes, I do. Most people, even here, don't check the links. They just assume they are unbiased and on topic and accept the bilge at face value. Why don't you go ahead and check all those beautiful links your asshat friend cites and get back to us. They aint always what he says they are.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5765212 - 06/18/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

FANTASTIC article! If the US pulled our troops from where we didn't need them, bin-Laden would probably still hate us, but it would be much harder to find recruits.


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Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5765234 - 06/18/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I firmly believe that the U.S. would never be attacked again if we were to remove all troops from the Arabian Peninsula, stop giving aid to Israel, and stop meddling in Middle Eastern politics.




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5768163 - 06/19/06 02:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xDuckYouSuckerx said:
FANTASTIC article! If the US pulled our troops from where we didn't need them, bin-Laden would probably still hate us, but it would be much harder to find recruits.






No it wouldn't.
Bin laden would gain more recruits, because his strategy succeeded in defeating the West, making it more appeal able to join .....


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5768410 - 06/19/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why would they need more recruits if we were no longer meddling in their respective countries?

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Redstorm]
    #5768512 - 06/19/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Because some folks are obsessed with the idea that the muslims want to start a new empire and take over the world with AKs on the backs of camels  :rofl:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Redstorm]
    #5768521 - 06/19/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Why would they need more recruits if we were no longer meddling in their respective countries?






Why were there Al Quada recruits before the war?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5768670 - 06/19/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Why would they need more recruits if we were no longer meddling in their respective countries?






Why were there Al Quada recruits before the war?



Because we were meddling in the Middle East.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Silversoul]
    #5768710 - 06/19/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Care to list an example or two of US meddling in the Middle East?



Phred


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Phred]
    #5768785 - 06/19/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Care to list an example or two of US meddling in the Middle East?





1. Giving money and weapons to the Saudi Royal family so that they can stay in power. The Saudi Royal family maintains a dictatorial and theocratic dictatorship. Many Saudis despise their government and they have no ability to change it.

2. Invading Iraq twice. We can debate the justifications of these wars forever...but the simple fact is that many thousands of innocent Iraqi's have died because of both wars.

3. Propping up the Egyptian government by giving them money and weapons. The Egyptian government is a dictatorship/half-assed democracy that is unpopular with its own people.

4. Clearly favoring Israel in the whole Israel vs. the Palestinians conflict. We give them attack helicopters, weapons, etc.. Granted, the U.S. did give the Palestinians money (before Hamas came into power), but this aid was not anywhere near what was given to Israel.

5. Propping up the Iranian Shah and his corrupt government for years and years because it served our interests. He eventually was overthown by the Iranian Islamic Revolution in 1979.

6. Having troops stationed in many Arab countries. I certainly would not like it if foreign troops were on my country's soil.

7. Giving Saddam our support during the Iran-Iraq War. We did it in order to prop him up as a counter-balance to Iran.

Edited by RandalFlagg (06/19/06 04:51 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5768872 - 06/19/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Giving money and weapons to the Saudi Royal family so that they can stay in power.




Bzzzt! Wrong. The US gives no money to the Saudis, nor do they give weapons. They do, however, SELL arms to the Saudis, as do many other countries.

Quote:

2. Invading Iraq twice.




Bzzt! Wrong answer. The first Gulf War did not include an invasion of Iraq. If it had, Hussein would have been gone in 1991. And of course, the first Gulf War was not US "meddling" but a UN-approved military action -- one of just four in the UN's entire history -- which included dozens of other countries, including several Arab and Muslim ones.

Quote:

3. Propping up the Egyptian government by giving them money and weapons.




And why does this matter to anyone other than Egyptians?

Quote:

Clearly favoring Israel in the whole Israel vs. the Palestinians conflict.




And why does this matter to anyone other than Israelis? This "meddling" in Israel's affairs is not affecting any other Middle Eastern country.

Quote:

5. Propping up the Iranian Shah and his corrupt government for years and years because it served our interests.




Now this is the one example that might have some validity. Of course the Shah came to power some fifty years ago, and the US abandoned him when the going got tough, but hey. The US did do business with him for a long time.

Quote:

7. Giving Saddam our support during the Iran-Iraq War.




Define "support".




Phred


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: Phred]
    #5769675 - 06/19/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The US gives no money to the Saudis, nor do they give weapons. They do, however, SELL arms to the Saudis, as do many other countries.




http://www.thedailystar.net/2004/07/17/d40717130391.htm

The funds were designated for military training but approval would have triggered millions of dollars in discounts on hardware and other military training, lawmakers said.

So, it didn't get approved in 2004....but what about past years? Selling military hardware at heavily discounted prices counts as "giving them stuff" to me. But, even ignoring this you must admit that when a powerful country sells weapons to and has a close friendship with a regime that this counts as heavy support and even dare I say "propping up". The U.S. has a vested interest in keeping the Saudi Royal family in power. The U.S. doesn't seem to care that this royal family functions as an oppressive dictatorship.

Quote:

Phred said:
the first Gulf War was not US "meddling" but a UN-approved military action -- one of just four in the UN's entire history -- which included dozens of other countries, including several Arab and Muslim ones.




It is true that many other countries were involved in the first Iraq war. Which country took the lead though? Which country's military commanders were in control? Which country provided most of the manpower and machines? Which country's leader started the rhetoric and the tough talk against Saddam? Which country made an effort to galvanize the world and establish a coalition against Saddam? America. Even though the first Gulf War was a UN action, the U.S. was the brains, the motivator, and the brawn behind it.

Quote:

Phred said:
Bzzt! Wrong answer. The first Gulf War did not include an invasion of Iraq.




Excuse me for using the word "invasion". However, the U.S. has "interfered" with Iraq twice now. Both of these interferences have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi's. So let me change my phrase from "invading Iraq" to "bombing the hell out of Iraq".

Quote:

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
3. Propping up the Egyptian government by giving them money and weapons.




And why does this matter to anyone other than Egyptians?




That was not your original question. Your original question was about examples of U.S. meddling in the Middle East. Giving aid to a government in the hopes of keeping it in power because it serves your interests constitutes meddling in my opinion. Especially if this government is a dictatorship (like Egypt's government is).

Did it not bother you when the Soviet Union attempted to gain influence in Southeast Asia by supplying the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong with weapons?

Quote:

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
Clearly favoring Israel in the whole Israel vs. the Palestinians conflict.




And why does this matter to anyone other than Israelis? This "meddling" in Israel's affairs is not affecting any other Middle Eastern country.




The Arabs feel an affinity for their fellow Arabs (the Palestinians). They see images practically every day of squalid refugee camps and demolished Palestinian houses. It's not surprising that most Arabs and Muslims have developed an interest in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Quote:

Quote:

Randalflagg said:

Giving Saddam our support during the Iran-Iraq War.




Define "support".






Selling weapons to and cozying up to Saddam in order to counter Iran counts as "support" to me.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5769990 - 06/19/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Randel Flagg stated: The Arabs feel an affinity for their fellow Arabs (the Palestinians). They see images practically every day of squalid refugee camps and demolished Palestinian houses. It's not surprising that most Arabs and Muslims have developed an interest in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


^^^^^^^^^
The Arabs could give a shit about the Palestinians
Why do you think the Palestinians are refuges? Remember Jordon kicking them out?

And there is this recent occurance:

http://www.prc.org.uk/data/aspx/d1/2721.aspx

Jordanian officials are reiterating their refusal to allow refugees to enter the country, the London-based A-Sharq Al-Awsat reported.

Responding to requests from international organizations to open its borders to refugees, Jordan says this will cause a large influx of refugees from Iraq, and it will be unable to cope with them.

The main issue at hand is a group of Palestinians who fled the violence in Iraq and are seeking refuge in Jordan. A group of several dozen Palestinians arrived at the Iraqi-Jordanian border last month and were not allowed into the country. They were stranded in no-man’s-land before they were sent back into Iraq, where they fear persecution due to the mounting sectarian violence.

Amman is also rejecting the entry of 200 Kurdish Iranian refugees who have been residing in an area between Jordan and Iraq for several months.

Last week Human Rights Watch called on Jordan to reopen its border to Palestinian refugees, and called on the international community to assist Jordan by offering to resettle these refugees in third countries acceptable to them. “Unlike Iraqi nationals, these Palestinians cannot enter Jordan on tourist visas,” HRW said.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: 'Debating' the Iraq War [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5770029 - 06/19/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It makes no sense to compare the actions of an unelected Arab government to the sympathies of the Arab public.

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