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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism
    #5726273 - 06/08/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Since i was banned for posting this on the mysticsm & paranormal sections, i thoguht it might be more appropriate to post it here.

Attention Mods: If you have a problem dont be so cowardly as to ban me for expressing my views. Censorship is never positive.

"No wonder psychedelics are are class A drug in most countries. Given the crazy and outlandish views of most who participate on this section of the forum, it doesn't surprise me at all that most governments see the whole counter-culture drug scene as a serious threat to people's mental health and want to make it as difficult as possible for people to get hold of these hallucinogenic substances.

However i do believe that under the right conditions, given the correct guidence and instruction and the right individuals who have clarity and stability of mind, hallucinogenics can provide a very useful tool for introducing people to the possibles of different perspectives on reality. An initiatory rite to open the conditioned mind to more possibilites as it were. But seeing the radical shifts in perspectives that alot of individuals exhibit after prolonged and regular use of such substances, it seems more likely for mental health issues to become more frequent as delusions and fantasies begin to run wild in the minds of regular users.

Shamans from many cultures have the knowledge and the wisdom to know how best to use the tools provided by nature for medicinal and spiritual purpose, whereas the masses at large are ignorant of such knowledge and this is when the tools can become very dangerous. Its kind of like handing out power tools to small children, there are bound to be many accidents.

Allowing a forum like this to fester in fantasy and delusion is beyond a joke. People need there delusions to be revealed and there fantasies to be questioned otherwise there is no possibility of wisdom and insight to dawn. The breaking off of S&P into two separate forums i feel was a very bad idea. "


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726314 - 06/08/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

they are highly stigmatized because they are associated with counter-culture peace and anti-government control movements.

not for mental health, but mental health is probably the reasons they will give you.

further, we have no proper context for spiritual use of entheogens BECAUSE of this society and its laws.....

they ought to be legal or at least legal for religious purposes and ceremonies if we want people to not go so nutty when they use them.

i agree things have gone pretty strange around here though.


----- did they ban you from that forum? I'm not sure how what you are doing is different than starting a thread saying "my religion is right and everyone else is wrong" or anything like that.... I dunno.....


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: leery11]
    #5726446 - 06/08/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well yes, i agree to an extent that the government is using the mental health issue card as an excuse to control substances. But that doesn't mean that there excuse has no validity.

Drug laws in most countries don't reflect the harm to user factor, and the fact that alcohol & tobacco are still legal, whilst being highly dangerous is very hypocritical, this i am not denying.

I also agree that psychedelic compounds should be legalized within the scope of religious/spiritual practice, but this as we know is a very difficult law to implement.


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Edited by Sinbad (06/08/06 11:51 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726481 - 06/08/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

While I seriously doubt that the government gives a flying fuck about your mental health; I do tend to agree with the rest of your post. From my observations the use of psychedelics have been of limited benefit to most users. That is I belive, because the work of growth is very difficult and psychedelics are only a small tool for the work that has to be done and very few are willing to really act on what their psychedelic experiences have revealed or take doses that can push them beyond their limits.  :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726483 - 06/08/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I do not think it is difficult. If someone forms a church and uses sacrament in context of that church it should be allowed regardless of heritage.

For instance perhaps a Wiccan type church would operate that uses LSD, peyote, mushrooms, other hallucinagens, and they do it out in nature and meditate, or whatever.

They should be granted the right to, just like Native Americans can use peyote in some states.... and just like how the Supreme Court recently allowed the use of religious DMT.

There is a man starting a cannabis church based upon that court decision that claims that their ruling in favor of DMT denotes that any substance may be used in a religious manner, that the 1st amendment is more important than drug laws......

it's a Christian type church oriented towards cannabis use.

furthermore most of this alien frenzy is government related, maybe if we could trust the government more because they let us eat whatever we wanted, we wouldn't have such crazy trips?

I will agree with you that a sober person who has never even experienced lucid dreams or any meditative states would have full justification in being scared as hell of psychedelic drugs and what they are doing to people!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 11:58 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726501 - 06/08/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sometimes I think psychedelics can backfire in the wrong hands. They do have the potential to bring about positive change, but it requires some effort on the part of the individual. The individual may fall into the trap of relying solely on psychedelics for personal growth. They may also believe that their psychedelic insights are the only valid ones. In this way, a drug that temporarily diminishes the ego may create an egomaniac in the long run.


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5726511 - 06/08/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Honestly, as far as shrooms are concerned, I think things are fine the way they are. People can grow their own np. Just don't get caught. Or you could be even safer and just buy them from a dealer so you will have no evidence on you except for that 1 dose.

People, by and large, would rather not take shrooms. They are very intense. Those who do wish to use shrooms can get them with only a small amount of dedication.


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Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5726561 - 06/08/06 12:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i disagree entirely. people's lives are ruined because of the laws.

it might be okay that they stay not legal but they need to have NO criminal penalties whatsoever, at worst a fine.

and that goes for cultivation too!

also i'd like to see people setting down the booze and picking up either the bong, or a light dose of mushrooms (but i haven't done mushrooms so can't speculate as to the effects, but i wager a more peaceful nation would arise with more tolerant and open views)


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 12:46 PM)

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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726594 - 06/08/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No wonder psychedelics are are class A drug in most countries. Given the crazy and outlandish views of most who participate on this section of the forum, it doesn't surprise me at all that most governments see the whole counter-culture drug scene as a serious threat to people's mental health and want to make it as difficult as possible for people to get hold of these hallucinogenic substances.




Actually i don't see any direct relationship between a forum which, in your opinion, discusses "crazy and outlandish views", and any possible attitude of the government regarding the consequence and use (or should i say misuse) of hallucinogens. Although the anecdotal evidence depicted in such relationship you refer, i must agree the excessive use of entheogens might produce chapters of paranoia and delusion, but link it to the reason of why the government classifies hallucinogens as class A is an unfair and unintelligent conclusion to say the least.

First, because you don't know the background of regular posters in MR&P. You don't know if they consume 3 grs per day, everyday, or just 1,5gr every three months.

Second, because you can't quantify how many people develop such "fantasy and delusion" because of the use of entheogens.

Third, because you are unaware of how many people posting in that forum is defined as psychologically inclined to debate matters that you consider as a result of "serious threat to people's mental health".

Fourth, because the "counter-culture drug scene" can't be analyzed in such a simplistic way. The "scene" is much more complex than a forum which represents a small fraction of this site. Therefore, i don't think you need to be worried about the government classifying us as people having, what you consider, "crazy and outlandish views".

Fifth, i don't give a flying fuck about what the government thinks. Drugs are classified class A not because there are people having episodes of "fantasy and delusion", but because who's in command cares more about prohibiting what they can't understand, than giving the right to people to freely express various forms of consciousness.

Anyway, it seems the government is not the only one conforming to such an attitude. Even inside the "counter-culture drug scene" there seems to be some kind of autism from many people regarding others and their singular expression of personal views in ways they can't understand or appreciate. Even Worst ! A climate of hostility is set to discredit alternative views, forgetting that themselves, have their own alternative views about reality and wish them respected.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (06/08/06 12:51 PM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726671 - 06/08/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said: hallucinogenics can provide a very useful tool for introducing people to the possibles of different perspectives on reality.




Do you really believe that? I wonder because you also wrote this-

Quote:

Sinbad said: No wonder psychedelics are are class A drug in most countries. Given the crazy and outlandish views of most who participate on this section of the forum.




Or is it only true when they show others what possibles they have shown you? If the possibles, from different perspectives to be learned from are only the ones you agree with,  then really, nobody else needs to use them. They can all just learn solely from you instead. :grin: Is that what you are really saying here?

Regarding your comments about crazy and outlandish views, "as if" you think it best for them to be suppressed, remember this-

Quote:

Sinbad said;
Censorship is never positive.




I enjoy reading crazy and outlandish ideas and views. They help us to temporarily break free from "consensus reality thinking" and give us more possibilities of what can or may be to consider. It can help keep us from settling in to habitual and dogmatic thinking patterns as well.

There is never a point where anyone knows it all and has it all figured out.

Keep the outlandish and crazy ideas and views coming people. Not everyone even thinks much of it is crazy or outlandish. At best the really really far out posts are just really entertaining.

Anyone posting the crazy and outlandish there has a lot of courage to freely express experiences, views, ideas and beliefs from far out of the norm.  :thumbup:

How views get used is like anything else. You can use a gun to attack, protect, or hammer a nail into a wall to hang a pretty picture. You can use, a teddy bear to comfort a child or suffocate and kill with it.

It's not about what people are putting out there being good or bad, right or wrong, sane or crazy. It's about how people choose to use it or leave it be. That's not the posters responcibility.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
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Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: MAIA]
    #5726769 - 06/08/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:

Although the anecdotal evidence depicted in such relationship you refer, i must agree the excessive use of entheogens might produce chapters of paranoia and delusion, but link it to the reason of why the government classifies hallucinogens as class A is an unfair and unintelligent conclusion to say the least.

Well, thats the reason the government gives for classification, so regardless4ss of you opinion, there is a definite link. Scientific studies on hallucinogenic substances have also brought up data to suggest links between psychosis and hallucinogenic substances, and this is the foundation for the governments arguments on this matter, like it or not.

First, because you don't know the background of regular posters in MR&P. You don't know if they consume 3 grs per day, everyday, or just 1,5gr every three months.

Never suggested i did, but the atmosphere of a forum with rules stating that nobody can challenge one another's views, is a dangerous breeding ground for delusion and fantasies, don't you think?

Second, because you can't quantify how many people develop such "fantasy and delusion" because of the use of entheogens.

Of course, but this place IS called the SHROOMERY. Therefore we can conclude that a vast majority of the members are familiar with and have experimented with magic mushrooms or other psycadelic substances, otherwise, why would they be here?

Third, because you are unaware of how many people posting in that forum is defined as psychologically inclined to debate matters that you consider as a result of "serious threat to people's mental health".

You are twisting my words. I never said that the ideas themselves were a serious threat to peoples mental health. instead i suggested that a forum setup with rules stating that ideas cannot be challenged will obviously become a breeding ground for delusion and fantasy. Just open your eyes and take a look at the majority of posts in the M,R&P forum.

Fifth, i don't give a flying fuck about what the government thinks. Drugs are classified class A not because there are people having episodes of "fantasy and delusion", but because who's in command cares more about prohibiting what they can't understand, than giving the right to people to freely express various forms of consciousness.

My post doesnt question the givernments reasoning, i just think that there excuse has some merit. But hey your right, lets get the people in command to release all the patients of all the mental asylums. After all, they have the right to express there various forms of consciousness freely and without judgment. :smirk:

Anyway, it seems the government is not the only one conforming to such an attitude. Even inside the "counter-culture drug scene" there seems to be some kind of autism from many people regarding others and their singular expression of personal views in ways they can't understand or appreciate. Even Worst !

I disagree. Open mindedness is'nt about letting anything slide. Personally i feel that open-mindedness is about the willingness to accept the possibilities, but its also about examining and observing oneself to see whether ideas and beliefs hold up to the light of reason and analysis. Holding unexamined beliefs can become a circumstance e for paranoia, delusions and fantasies to manifest endlessly. Only through logical analysis and self-observation can the reality or unreality of your personal views be confirmed.

A climate of hostility is set to discredit alternative views, forgetting that themselves, have their own alternative views about reality and wish them respected.

See above. Unexamined views are the breeding ground of mental illness. Ask any qualified shrink and they will tell you the same. Nothing to do with hostility, its to do with sanity.

MAIA




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Edited by Sinbad (06/08/06 01:57 PM)

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OfflineSprings
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Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726846 - 06/08/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sinbad said: No wonder psychedelics are are class A drug in most countries. Given the crazy and outlandish views of most who participate on this section of the forum, it doesn't surprise me at all that most governments see the whole counter-culture drug scene as a serious threat to people's mental health and want to make it as difficult as possible for people to get hold of these hallucinogenic substances.




Funny thing is, they think your views are even outlandish because they still involve psychedelics, they don't see a difference in your views of the shaman accessing sacred holy planes of existence through the practice and knowledge of a shamanistic techniques and a wizard doing magic spells, or what ever you view as outlandish.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: Government, Society, Hallucinogens & Shamanism [Re: Sinbad]
    #5726886 - 06/08/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said: A climate of hostility is set to discredit alternative views, forgetting that themselves, have their own alternative views about reality and wish them respected.

Sinbad said:  Unexamined views are the breeding ground of mental illness. Ask any qualified shrink and they will tell you the same. Nothing to do with hostility, its to do with sanity.




I would like to comment on this. When other examine our views , they do it with their own bias and call anything different from their wrong, and not healthy or sane. In doing so, they further act to take us from out of ourselves and that leads to actual insanity "being out of our mind".

Self examination is the key. Its up to every individual to examine their own views and beliefs and to examine how they are serving them in life. This is where true positive change and transformation comes from, the self examination process.

If one is going to facilitate that, the only thing they can do to be of real help, is ask questions, like.

How has that beliefs served you?

What if you believed this instead?

How does seeing something this way, bring your life more balance and stability?

What if you viewed it this way?

That sort of helpful questioning is allowed in there. thats how discussion to further self examine and explore get started. Its the, "Your view is wrong and mine is right BS that isn't helpful that people got tired of and wanted that forum for.

Only asking the questions can be of help. The person doing the self examination has to be the only one giving the answers, for any meaningful new realizations to take place.

When a facilitator, implants the his beliefs and perspectives, as the right answers to the questions, it only takes the person, out of their right mind. It's a great way to mess people up if not handled with care and put them in mind wrong for them. That's the equivalent of  programming another human being to become a robot of yourself, is all that sort of help is. Not a healthy thing to do to free will human beings.

What many fail to realize is that many who wanted the NON debate environment of MR&P for,is because they grew beyond the need to have others tell them what is right for them. They prefer to figure it out for themselves through trial and error and living life itself. They also prefer to bounce thoughts and ideas off of each other to reflect upon, on their own time with.

Its like Bruce Lee once said about teaching. He said, "I can not teach anyone anything nor do I. All I do is help them to discover more of themselves and what they can become". 

He is a great example of someone who is ultimatley, a self lead and self taught person. That's a style of guidance and learning many MR&P regulars, or those not afraid to post in there, prefer to use in life too. :thumbup:

Something to take into consideration on your own time.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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