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Offlinedavesj1
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Registered: 04/11/05
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50/50+ lime replacement
    #5707440 - 06/03/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Is there anything i can use instead of the hordicultural lime in the 50/50+ mix? Will just oyster shell do the job?

Edited by davesj1 (06/03/06 01:09 PM)

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OfflineBPJohnny
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Re: 50/50+ lime replacement [Re: davesj1]
    #5707457 - 06/03/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This is all quoted from Blue Helix part from his post in the 50/50 tek

and part from a PM i recieved for a question i had hope it helps ya



However, I have very strong issue with the recommendation to use hydrated lime. Not only is this not used in professional growing, it has very limited application in mushroom casings at all. Furthermore, if used in the amount recommended in the the 50/50 Tek, it will not work, period. I am not sure what was tested at 1.2 cups per 15.5 cups of peat moss, but I can assure you it was not calcium hydroxide. Such an application would burn the mycelium so bad that fruiting would be minimal or most probably non-existent entirely.

In all my casings I use calcium carbonate. Oyster shell flour, powdered caclium carbonate as in wine making, or pulverized limestone are three commonly available versions of calcium carbonate. And I typically use crushed coral aragonite as my long-term buffer rather than oyster shell chips as you recommend.

Calcium carbonate is a gentle buffer, slowly raising the pH to about 7.8 (tops) before it stops dissolving entirely. When the mushrooms release more acids, the pH falls a little and the calcium carbonate starts to buffer the fall keeping it from falling too far. It's perfect for the application and cannot at any level burn the mycelium. It is used exclusively in the mushroom industry as a casing buffer (hydrated lime is never used except as a bath to pasteurize straw).

Calcium hydroxide (hydrated lime), reacts extremely rapidly with the peat moss acids since it is much more soluble than calcium carbonate and doesn't stop reacting until around a pH of 12.5! The ONLY application that hydrated lime is good in a casing is for an initial adjustment of the peat moss pH. It takes a tiny, tiny bit to do it. I recommend about one teaspoon in per 15.5 cups of peat moss for this application.

Alone and at 1 teaspoon per 15.5 cups of peat moss hydrated lime will not buffer the casing pH; it just gets you where you want to be fast but it can't hold it. If you add a lot, it could drive the pH to 12.5 for a long time, but that is not what we want either. To maintain the casing pH, one must put calcium carbonate of some form in the casing. Some powder can be used and/or some larger forms like crushed aragonite coral or oyster shells. The best mix is about 1/2 cup of a powder form and a couple cups of a larger form. You can add as much as 4 cups of chip forms without any issue and it will just improve the texture all the more.

oyster shells can be ground to chips or much finer to flour. Oyster shell flour should feel almost like flour or corn meal. Oyster shell chips feel like small pebbles. Although there is no difference chemically--they are the same stuff--the reactivity of the two is totally different. The flour, which is much finer, will tend to raise pH much more rapidly while the oyster shell pieces won't hardly do anything but provide a good texture. That is because calcium carbonate is almost insoluable and it's ability to disolve is in proportion to its surface area.

These online products will cover both bases at the same time:

http://store.yahoo.com/rosecare1/feo11.html
http://www.groworganic.com/item_F018_OysterShellLime7LbBox.html

If you buy them, use it in replacement and pick some amount closer to the flour. I would recommend somewhere 2 cups. The key is that it won't really matter too much since adding too much calcium carbonate isn't really a problem. Adding too much hydrated lime, in comparison, kills everything which is why I wouldn't recommend it unless you have an accurate, sensitive pH probe (about $50 cheapest online) to guide you.

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Offlinedavesj1
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Registered: 04/11/05
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Re: 50/50+ lime replacement [Re: BPJohnny]
    #5712173 - 06/04/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

but deosnt oyster shell not work as a short term buffer?

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OfflineBPJohnny
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Re: 50/50+ lime replacement [Re: davesj1]
    #5712183 - 06/04/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

did you read the post man?

"oyster shells can be ground to chips or much finer to flour. Oyster shell flour should feel almost like flour or corn meal. Oyster shell
chips feel like small pebbles. Although there is no difference chemically--they are the same stuff--the reactivity of the two is
totally different. The flour, which is much finer, will tend to raise pH much more rapidly while the oyster shell pieces won't hardly do
anything but provide a good texture. That is because calcium carbonate is almost insoluable and it's ability to disolve is in proportion to
its surface area."

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: 50/50+ lime replacement [Re: BPJohnny]
    #5712248 - 06/04/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You have to remember that BH bought the wrong kind of hydrated lime and had some horrible experiences with it. That's why he says to only use one teaspoon with 15.5 cups of peat, when you're supposed to use hydrated garden lime at the rate of one teaspoon to one cup of peat.

Don't buy your hydrated lime from a concrete, steel manufacturing, or construction supply house. It is not only exponentially stronger than the hydrated garden lime, it often has other toxins and chemicals in it as well for manufacturing processes.

As said, grind your oyster shells to a powder and they'll suffice. I still prefer hydrated garden lime over other methods however, because it's during the first week or two that you have to worry the most about contaminant spores germinating on your casing. Once it's colonized, they don't have as much of a chance to ruin your day. The high ph immediately after spawning or casing doesn't impeded the mycelium much, but prevents germination of acid loving molds such as trichoderma.

If you can't find hydrated lime from a sponsor here, Best Hardware stores in the US carry it. Go to a local store, or go to www.doitbest.com and search their site for hydrated lime.
RR


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OfflineBPJohnny
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Re: 50/50+ lime replacement [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5712287 - 06/04/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i was unaware of that RR thanks for clearing that up

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Offlinedavesj1
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 260
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: 50/50+ lime replacement [Re: BPJohnny]
    #5712459 - 06/04/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the advice guys. Im guessing that the stuff that comes in the little bags for birds is fine enough.

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