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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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I Object to Worship
    #5558043 - 04/26/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Worship seems calculated to maintain power over a "flock" of followers. The idea is that you're not worthy, that you are lesser than the ideas or gods you bow down to. Many come to believe that they are not even capable of interpreting the religious texts they adhere to, and thus give their personal power away to the middle man: preacher, priest, minister, guru, etc...

IMO, religion is fine so long as it is:

1. Not legislated for everyone
2. Not used as an excuse for waging war, either at home or abroad
3. Not used by men to gain power through the church/temple
4. Not used to bludgeon the self-esteem of followers

When religion is used in these ways, it becomes a tool of power, rather than spiritual support and guidance.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5558343 - 04/26/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
The idea is that you're not worthy, that you are lesser than the ideas or gods you bow down to.



Worship is indeed about humility, but not necessarily in the way you depict it. For me, it's about recognizing that I am a part of something much greater than myself. It is essentially my individual, material self, bowing down in recognition of my higher, transcendent self, which one might call "God."


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Silversoul]
    #5558379 - 04/26/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Then why bow down, as though it is something outside of yourself? Certainly we are both sacred and profane, both exalted and lowly, but why focus the worship and recognition on external gods? Why worship at all, if we are IT?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5558391 - 04/26/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Bowing is symbolic of the humility involved in recognizing this higher self, and I find that while prostrating myself, I feel this surge of energy. Paradoxically, it seems as though there is power in humbling oneself.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Silversoul]
    #5558403 - 04/26/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

:shrug:  I guess I just don't get it.  While I do feel a strong connection to spiritual forces, I have never felt the urge to worship them.  The one-down position seems "off" to me, somehow.  I know that my essence is made of the same energy, though I am also a physical form, and so I do not believe in a spiritual hierarchy.

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OfflineEmptySpace
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5558421 - 04/26/06 12:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Are you really of physical form? Think about it...  :cool:


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We can't stop here - This is bat country.

-Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: EmptySpace]
    #5558427 - 04/26/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

On the quantum level, no, but in the material realm as we are capable of experiencing it, yes. :cool:

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5558471 - 04/26/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I find the very idea of worship to be extremely disturbing. I also consider myself a spiritual person, and certainly know and recognize that there are powers that we don't understand. One can call those powers 'god' or any other name that suits oneself. However, the very idea of 'worship' implies that the god possesses the human weaknesses of ego and jealousy. If you look at the whole of the universe, any god powerful enough to create such a thing, would hardly be burdened with the emotional shortcomings of a late evolving envasive species such as humans. Thus, any god that demands to be worshipped or groveled before, must by definition be a false god.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Silversoul]
    #5558570 - 04/26/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Bowing is symbolic of the humility involved in recognizing this higher self, and I find that while prostrating myself, I feel this surge of energy. Paradoxically, it seems as though there is power in humbling oneself.




yes, when you bow down the ego before your higher self you gain power. you realize how silly your egos anxieties and insecurities are and see that you don't need them. bowing down is necessary because the ego, being built of a fear, can never fully see past its own fears. bowing down is tremendously effective ego loosener. watch as anger, hate and jealously melt away.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Deviate]
    #5558610 - 04/26/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I felt the same humbling experience yesterday while playing golf, and bowing down to pick up my ball felt good as that was one less lost ball. Meanwhile, nature in all "her"? splendor surrounded and nurtured me. Shall I worship nature? Shall I feel humbled and bow down to nature? Do I feel blessed to enjoy the humbling pleasures of golf on a beautiful spring day? You betcha.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlineblaze2
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5558676 - 04/26/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"religion" isnt the problem, its "organized religions" which are both "controlling and meaningless". I worship God everyday by myself I interperet the Bible for myself. God does not belong to churches.

"lift a stone and you will find me, turn a leaf and I am there" is one of my favorite lines of the bible, not one of the churches of course.

Religion for me isnt rules I must follow. To me its like the path that guides you through a forest at times it dissapears completely, it crosses streams, and all around is life to distract you. There is nothing wrong with leaving the path and exploring new places as long as you return to the trail and your journey through life. stray too far and you risk losing the path altogether. Although in actuality I'm pretty sure the path is never really that far from you, because it IS you. Its your baseline, your self and soul in its most natural state.

I dont know if that makes much sense to you, but someday it might. The point is that to worship God one needs only to walk the path.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineEmptySpace
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5558811 - 04/26/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well Veritas, you got what I was alluding to.  Nice, mad props.  :ooo:


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We can't stop here - This is bat country.

-Duke--Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Deviate]
    #5558814 - 04/26/06 02:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Bowing is symbolic of the humility involved in recognizing this higher self, and I find that while prostrating myself, I feel this surge of energy.  Paradoxically, it seems as though there is power in humbling oneself.




yes, when you bow down the ego before your higher self you gain power. you realize how silly your egos anxieties and insecurities are and see that you don't need them. bowing down is necessary because the ego, being built of a fear, can never fully see past its own fears.  bowing down is tremendously effective ego loosener. watch as anger, hate and jealously melt away.




Exactly! Prostrating is important for burninng away the defilements of self-centeredness. Giving up your small mind to the big mind. Surrendering your delusions to the ultimate. Only through humility can compassion arise. The realization of the interconnectedness of all beings, rests in a heart purified through acts of devotion and loving kindness.  :heart:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Deviate]
    #5558872 - 04/26/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Bowing is symbolic of the humility involved in recognizing this higher self, and I find that while prostrating myself, I feel this surge of energy.  Paradoxically, it seems as though there is power in humbling oneself.




yes, when you bow down the ego before your higher self you gain power. you realize how silly your egos anxieties and insecurities are and see that you don't need them. bowing down is necessary because the ego, being built of a fear, can never fully see past its own fears.  bowing down is tremendously effective ego loosener. watch as anger, hate and jealously melt away.




Yup to all of that!

We do a lot of bowing at my dojo. At first, I felt silly doing it. And now, I enjoy the moments of pause where respect for a higher power is shown. There is no room for any of my ego pride when I feel the force of their kicks when holding pads. They've earned their bows and master titles from me.

We bow walking in, to the masters, to each other, when handing over equipment, and its all to show respect for the power being raised, disciplined and channeled through us.


At first , I felt embarrassed (ego pride) walking in with a white belt on. Soon, I loved the lowly humble place of walking in with it on. There were no expectations on me, no belt rank status to uphold, NOTHING. I was more free then the rest of them.

I enjoy being a part of something that has been teaching me how to check my ego pride at the door before entering. ( I need help in that department  :tongue:):japsmile:


I also used to get turned off when I would read channeling's with spiritual hierarchy talk thinking it was all dualistic elitist bullshit. That was ego pride getting in the way once again. The spirits out there know we are all the same and equated in Essenes. Like with the martial arts belt rankings, some have just achieved increased self control and thoughtful, constructive direction with their power adding to their wealth of ability and wisdom. If its used in good will for all, it deserves my respect.

It feels good to get your ego pride out of the way and show some healthy and HONEST, admiration, reverence and respect for the power that breaths life into things and can take it. It's easy once you give it some whirls and see how liberating and powerful it can be to experience.

:japsmile:  :japsmile:  :japsmile: :japsmile:  it'seaaaaaasy like Sunday morning. :wink:


Now, even though I can afford to pay someone to do my tedious, hard sweaty exhaustive laboring gardening work, I am going to go do it myself because I love the humble feeling of being natures servant working down in the dirt.  I worship my gardens.:yesnod:

Mother Nature is a powerful force that can bring such beauty when balance and harmony is in play and such ugliness, when balance and harmony gets upset. I respect her power and its a privilege to be her humble servant and learn from the Master. :japsmile:

The best feeling in the world is getting over your self sense of importance or being above things. Feeling humbled is like being a child again discovering life for the first time, packed with curiosity, openess to discover the new and a sense of awe and wonderment for simple things.

It's a no wonder Jesus said something to effect of being like a child is the ticket to heaven.

What some see negative in the word worship is often nothing more then admiration, reverence or respect being shown for something that has probably earned it.

:japsmile:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5558874 - 04/26/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If worship doesn't fall to slavery, I don't see a problem :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5560278 - 04/26/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Organized religion has always been a means of consolidating political power through the oppression of the masses. It is psychological warfare at it's most subtle IMO.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5563343 - 04/27/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I worship the mighty hotdog.

"I'm not talking about hate. I'm talking about eight. Dinner at eight. So lets eat. The mighty hot dog is our Lord."    From the book of Big Secrets.  :egyptian: :hypno:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Icelander]
    #5563349 - 04/27/06 03:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Do you go to that "church" near the hardware store? Man, they have some excellent religion available there! (I like mine with pepper relish.)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Veritas]
    #5563355 - 04/27/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Not to mention the size of those things dearie. :wink: :penis:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I Object to Worship [Re: Icelander]
    #5563407 - 04/27/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

All hail the grilled phallic symbols!

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