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 Toqom
Shroomery Ding Dong
Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 162
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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 Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? 
#5448595 - 03/27/06 06:38 PM (18 years, 24 days ago) |
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Ok this isn't a bash thread, or anything negative. I'm more interested in the responses from people who are here and possibly Christian/Catholic or those who feel the way I do.
I was raised Catholic and can say I was the one who ended religion in my family at the age of 15 (25 now -10 happy years without religion). I can also say I get along with everyone I know and think down on the typical people who think God/Jesus will fix their lives instead of doing it themselves.
Getting that out of the way. My main question is:
Why, if Jesus ever DID come to us (and I'm not saying he did) would he have only done it ONCE and at that time? Doesn't it make sense if he was going to visit to do it before established governments were in place to make sure people did things for the right reason instead of trying to start a war between his followers/believers and the gov't (money/power people)?
Also, if God inspired the bible, why not create it himself and make it magically appear, why does it need to be written by men? (remember that game where you whisper something in your neighbor's ear and try to repeat it all the way around and someone always DRASTICALLY changes it)
Also, if Moses was given the 10 commandments, why did he think he was powerful enough to break rules that God had given him simply because people weren't following the rules he had not yet told them?
My questions are NOT here to start issue, I just want REAL people to answer them, or at least think about them. Religious people near me are IGNORANT and say, "This is just the way it is"
Realistically ever religion could be fake and you have to think about the possibility you believe the wrong thing with so many out there, I mean look at Scientology. In today's world, for how God is SUPPOSED to be, and how everyone always says how forgiving he is, why would he not let you into Heaven for not believing in him? Does he expect us to trust humans? My Dog doesn't belong to a church, will she go to hell?
I feel safer with worshiping nature so whoever gave it to me would see I appreciate it. I have 20+ plants, a dog, 2 cats, 2 salamanders, tons of fish and a girlfriend I live with and spoil rotten. Are you saying my friend who thinks he "Found God", pushes his religion, tells people the only way in heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, is an ex-meth dealer who blew up in a lab fire (he says that when the newspaper article says he was doused in gasoline), and has been involved in a murder, will go to heaven while I burn in hell?
This makes no sense to me... To me, religious people are lost. The ones who look to the bible (a book of stories, not a set of rules and laws) for guidance, the ones who pray to God for them to be more successful or get some girl, the ones who pressure others to go to church (or whatever you call it). The ones who need no Bible and help others instead of praying to help themselves are the ones that should be rewarded.
On a side note, my last company advertised they were a Christian company, had bible study every morning, raised 4.5Million dollars in investor money and are now under investigation by the FCC, SEC, FBI and local authorities. This kind of stuff makes me wonder. I feel religion was manufactured to have a second set of rules that the church could dictate without the government getting wise and just accepting it as religious freedom.
I just hate it, Religions make MONEY and lots of it, I think religions should not get tax exempt status, they should write off their money like everyone else so the 200k that went to the Pastor/Priest is taxed. If they really donate the money, let them prove it in a tax form! 
Phew that was fun. If I've offended someone, I did not mean to I'm just expressing myself and I think this place may be the only place I can get some better answers from people not chicken to speak up.
Yes I have many of complaints about religion and I'm sure they will all come up at some time. 
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 Silversoul
Rhizome
 
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: Toqom]
#5448671 - 03/27/06 07:20 PM (18 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Why, if Jesus ever DID come to us (and I'm not saying he did) would he have only done it ONCE and at that time? Doesn't it make sense if he was going to visit to do it before established governments were in place to make sure people did things for the right reason instead of trying to start a war between his followers/believers and the gov't (money/power people)?
Jesus came at an ideal time to spread his message. He was born into the Roman Empire, which basically connected most of the Western world. If he had come before civilization, his message would most likely have faded into obscurity.
Quote:
Also, if God inspired the bible, why not create it himself and make it magically appear, why does it need to be written by men? (remember that game where you whisper something in your neighbor's ear and try to repeat it all the way around and someone always DRASTICALLY changes it)
God doesn't work like that. God is something within us all, not an outside force acting on the universe.
Quote:
Also, if Moses was given the 10 commandments, why did he think he was powerful enough to break rules that God had given him simply because people weren't following the rules he had not yet told them?
huh? I'm afraid I dont follow.
Quote:
Are you saying my friend who thinks he "Found God", pushes his religion, tells people the only way in heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, is an ex-meth dealer who blew up in a lab fire (he says that when the newspaper article says he was doused in gasoline), and has been involved in a murder, will go to heaven while I burn in hell?
No, I wouldn't say that at all. Following Christ is not about where will go after death. It's about letting him into your heart and manifesting his compassion for others. Those who follow Christ out of fear do not know him.
Quote:
To me, religious people are lost.
I think there are different approaches to religion. Certainly, those who take a literalist approach do tend to lose their way. But those who take a gnostic approach almost always are improved by their faith, regardless of which religion they follow.
Quote:
I feel religion was manufactured to have a second set of rules that the church could dictate without the government getting wise and just accepting it as religious freedom.
Religion predates the state by a long time.
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leery11
I Tell You What!
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 9 years, 14 days
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5448845 - 03/27/06 08:03 PM (18 years, 24 days ago) |
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you have to think in metaphor.
Christ was a man who was persecuted by an evil empire.... he spread love in a place full of hatred and jdugement and taught non-violence and was martyred for his beliefs so that he may help others be as him.
Christianity is therefore a perfect religion for the current United States of America based upon that metaphor.... stand up for peace and love against the forces that be and do not buy into their religious blasphemies. This includes the Christians that are being pro-oppression and pro-war....
Think of Christ as one of many examples of liberated human beings, think of him as a vessel for those who seek ascention and salvation and evolution to model themselves after. Then consider the power that identifying with an archetypal symbol holds in one's mind.... being into psychedelics or lucid dreaming we can know the power of images and symbols. To hard wire your very personality to integrate into a Christ archetype (not Jesus Christ.... a "Christ" archetype it could be some other religious figure you identify with) is to program yourself to ascend into higher states of consciousness.... as high as they go eventually..... now assuming Jesus is real.... you have a guide to take you all the way up.
But I am skeptic as to whether he is a real being here in the present moment to fill us and evolve our minds and transmute our imperfections or not........... BUT even if he isn't real, the effect is still the same through symbolic assemilation of his key concepts.
This is probably not answering any of your questions whatsoever though, sorry.
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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BleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: Toqom]
#5449417 - 03/27/06 10:48 PM (18 years, 24 days ago) |
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the religeons u speak of are designed around faith.
faith is blind by design.
to try and use something like, rationality to influence the faithfull is useless.
they are opposing ideals.
why people cling to these things is a more complicated issue.
there is a force i see behind it. but i dont understand it.
it seems no one who knows will talk. or, they may have but what they said was just too unbelievable, which would probly be why most dont talk.
either way. *shrugs*
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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma
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BleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: leery11]
#5449447 - 03/27/06 10:51 PM (18 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said:
you have to think in metaphor.
Christ was a man who was persecuted by an evil empire.... he spread love in a place full of hatred and jdugement and taught non-violence and was martyred for his beliefs so that he may help others be as him.
... i wonder if they killed john lennon for the same reason...
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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: Toqom]
#5451761 - 03/28/06 03:39 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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I have a question for you. Why is it that from the vantage point of one's own 'historical' religion (Judaism, Christianity or Islam) everyone else's is mythical but one's own is accurately historical?
The Qur'an talks about Jesus, but said that someone else was crucified in His place. Some of the Christian Gnostics said the same thing, only they didn't interpret ANY of it historically. The story of the crucifixion for the Gnostics (like every other scriptural story) was mythologically taken.
If we learn to take our own scriptural stories as mythology first, one will realize that 'mythological time' which means a 'timeless truth,' makes a lot more sense than trying to absurdly believe in paranormal, miraculous historical events which probably never occured. The exoteric, uninitiated forms of the historical religions maintain that if one can suspend common sense and reason, then a divinely received 'faith' in the miraculous saves one from death, hell, reincarnation or some other damnable condition.
This is not what esoteric, initiated Gnostic tradition instructs. Whether Jew, Muslim or Christian, Gnostic religion is a religion of Self-Realization which at its deepest Realization is God-Realization. Now it is possible that there is some historicity with regard to scriptures, but one must understand that Mohammed riding through the heavens on a flying horse, Jesus' virgin birth or God appearing to Moses and the Hebrews through a series of Theophanies (burning bush, pillars of flame and smoke, etc.) are literary devices used to highlight spiritual teachings. The stories are written in concrete images, but only children and spiritual simpletons would continue to take these writings as historical events. They are clearly mythic in nature like the myths of the Hindus, for example. Just exactly how 'historical' the historical religions actually are is still under investigation.
The spiritual value of these religions is real, but one needs to know how to tap into them. Mere belief in ancient alleged supernatural events is not only ineffective in transforming human beings into spiritual beings, but the brainwashing of mere doctrines only creates robotic fanatics about doctrine, not living exponents of Truth.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: Toqom]
#5452307 - 03/28/06 06:06 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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I was raised Catholic ....
Glad to hear you escaped from the world's largest cult. The seat of the Papacy is the seat of the Antichrist.
Why, if Jesus ever DID come to us (and I'm not saying he did) would he have only done it ONCE and at that time? Doesn't it make sense if he was going to visit to do it before established governments were in place to make sure people did things for the right reason instead of trying to start a war between his followers/believers and the gov't (money/power people)?
Jesus did indeed physically come in the flesh. Jesus never taught to overthrow the government. His kingdom is spiritual, not physical. The scripture is spiritual, not political.
Also, if God inspired the bible, why not create it himself and make it magically appear, why does it need to be written by men? (remember that game where you whisper something in your neighbor's ear and try to repeat it all the way around and someone always DRASTICALLY changes it)
The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, therefore it is infallible and preserved by providence. Why did God ordain it so? Because it seemed good in His sight.
Realistically ever religion could be fake and you have to think about the possibility you believe the wrong thing with so many out there,
I know what I believe because God the Holy Spirit has shown me the truth and I have witness in myself with the Spirit, that the things believed are true.
I mean look at Scientology. In today's world, for how God is SUPPOSED to be, and how everyone always says how forgiving he is, why would he not let you into Heaven for not believing in him?
People are not condemned for not believing people are condemned for sin. While unbelief is calling God a liar in His testimony, and is sin, that sin is just one of thousands. Belief is the evidence of free grace justification, not a cause of justification. Christ alone is the cause of the justification of His people.
Does he expect us to trust humans?
The Word shows the man will always trust in false teachers and side against God, unless God converts them.
My Dog doesn't belong to a church, will she go to hell?
Animals were not created in God's image, so scripture doesn't address them (in a spiritual sense)..
I feel safer with worshiping nature so whoever gave it to me would see I appreciate it. I have 20+ plants, a dog, 2 cats, 2 salamanders, tons of fish and a girlfriend I live with and spoil rotten. Are you saying my friend who thinks he "Found God", pushes his religion, tells people the only way in heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, is an ex-meth dealer who blew up in a lab fire (he says that when the newspaper article says he was doused in gasoline), and has been involved in a murder, will go to heaven while I burn in hell?
Only sinners go to heaven. The Holy Spirit must convince you of your lost wretched condition as a ruined sinner, and show you the truth of the gospel, for anyone to see heaven. Now once a person is converted they do not continue in their old life because God has made them a new creation.
You saying that your righteousness is better than your friend's righteousness and you should receive better things from God because you have better merits. What you can't see is that you and everyone around you are all worthy of eternal damnation. The saved sinner knows that the only thing that makes the difference between heaven and hell is the free sovereign grace of God ALONE by the atoning work of Jesus Christ.
This makes no sense to me... To me, religious people are lost. The ones who look to the bible (a book of stories, not a set of rules and laws) for guidance, the ones who pray to God for them to be more successful or get some girl, the ones who pressure others to go to church (or whatever you call it). The ones who need no Bible and help others instead of praying to help themselves are the ones that should be rewarded.
Your only "reward" for your works will be eternal damnation. God can only look at PERFECT righteousness, and that righteousness is only in Jesus Christ alone. People are saved despite what they have done, not because of what they do.
On a side note, my last company advertised they were a Christian company, had bible study every morning, raised 4.5Million dollars in investor money and are now under investigation by the FCC, SEC, FBI and local authorities. This kind of stuff makes me wonder. I feel religion was manufactured to have a second set of rules that the church could dictate without the government getting wise and just accepting it as religious freedom.
No doubt 99.97% of modern Christianity is fake, this is Mystery Babylon, the religious establishment is run by the forces of spiritual darkness.
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: fivepointer]
#5454670 - 03/29/06 10:49 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Or so it seems. Squeegee that third eye. All is ONE. Men without GOD are still subject. Even if they put on robes and speak in riddles. That subconscious element is always growing, the longer you neglect it the more powerful it becomes. Soon, this thing will be so large, powerful, and annoyed that it will open its mouth and bite these fakes in the ass. Its just information, but that shit stings. Stings like UFOs piercing this reality myth.
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: psyillyazul]
#5454704 - 03/29/06 11:00 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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I guess my point was that religion is somehow not outside the realm of GOD, figure that out. Seems to be an effective weeding out process of those that can't personally answer the call. Just that somehow these bastards took over some time back. They got good at the game. Now they are tampering with the beliefs. Help. They don't believe in GOD.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: Toqom]
#5456107 - 03/29/06 05:55 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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http://a1204.g.akamai.net/7/1204/1401/04...000/8202873.jpg
Don't forget to consider this. I think fivepointer turned me on to it (though I could be mistaken), it is a joyful read.
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5459166 - 03/30/06 11:32 AM (18 years, 21 days ago) |
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Can you summarize the point. I know that for many it is not a choice. Hence this big arrow pointing to the path that becomes my life. Whose got the goods...?? Whose got the nails...?? When will this end??
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: psyillyazul]
#5459220 - 03/30/06 11:47 AM (18 years, 21 days ago) |
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I was an atheist.
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: psyillyazul]
#5543340 - 04/22/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ya'll know the language right??
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: psyillyazul]
#5543342 - 04/22/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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who lives with grace?? who doesn't??
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD
Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 412
Loc: zion
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Re: Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? [Re: psyillyazul]
#5543343 - 04/22/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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OHHHHHHH... SORRY g o d
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