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InvisibleDiploidM
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Impossible! Or Maybe Not?
    #5152844 - 01/08/06 12:06 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Serious question for the mystic-heads among us. (No disrespect intended, call me a science-head if you wish, it's just a handy moniker).

Preface: Frequently when I use logic and reason to make a point that seems, to me anyway, airtight or when I corner a mystic-head with a logical argument that is unassailable, the usual comeback is that logic doesn't always apply.

This catch-all is hard to refute because, after all, if logic doesn't apply, what else is left.

This leads me to my question:

Is there nothing that is absolutely 100% impossible?

The same question stated mathematically in a roundabout way is:

If A = B

and if B = C

then is it possible for A to not = C?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (01/08/06 12:12 AM)

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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5152888 - 01/08/06 12:26 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think that there are no things that are impossible, simply because possible is such a loose word. If it doesn't have to have happened to be possible, then what grounds do you base posibility on?

I guess you would end up basing possibility on our physics and science knowledge of the time, but this is a very poor way to determine wether something is possible or not, as our understanding of the universe is not even close to 100%. Science is not something we should view concretely, in my opinion. However, we should, and usually do, simply because it is practical, as if we don't base things scientifically, then we are just going nowhere.

So basically if A=B

and B=C

Then A does not nessecarily = C, simply because who is to say that anything we know about anything, and logic, has any truth in actuality. We simply can't know.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #5152902 - 01/08/06 12:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

to answer your question honestly i will say that i don't know. however, to comment on the what people mean when they say logic doesn't always apply ill post this excerpt from the atheism web:

It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.

Firstly, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.

Secondly, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:

*

John wishes to speak to whoever is in charge.
*

The person in charge is Steve.
*

Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.

Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.

This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.


http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5152904 - 01/08/06 12:34 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There might be some discovery in the future which refutes some aspects of logic, which will turn our entire system of knowledge upside left... But, I have no reason to believe the Laws of Identity are not accurate representations of reality, they sure have worked quite successfully.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5152930 - 01/08/06 12:46 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Improbable?"
"Why, of course! Nothing's Impossible!"
- Doorknob


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5152987 - 01/08/06 01:05 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Alright, the consensus among the mystic-heads is that:

It is impossible for something to be impossible.

Is that correct or is this science-head missing something?  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153009 - 01/08/06 01:20 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Alright, the consensus among the mystic-heads is that:

It is impossible for something to be impossible.





By impossibility, you're assuming 0% chance, leaving no room for error. Virtually nothing is either 100% or 0% pure. Nothing is absolute.


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Fospher]
    #5153019 - 01/08/06 01:25 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Virtually nothing is either 100% or 0% pure. Nothing is absolute.

OK, now you're confusing me.

First you say "virtually nothing", then you follow up with "nothing".

Which one is it? :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153026 - 01/08/06 01:28 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This catch-all is hard to refute because, after all, if logic doesn't apply, what else is left?




The Abstract


Quote:

Is there nothing that is absolutely 100% impossible?



:shrug:

Quote:


If A = B

and if B = C

then is it possible for A to not = C?




Yes, if there is an abstract rule that says, when Z is present C no longer = B but now C=Z.  Z and A are not equal.

I think you may get frustrated when "mystic heads" talk in abstracts because you want to apply logic to test it to see if it holds up to logic. It won't. It's abstract and in the abstract it is correct.

Picasso's paintings are real. I can look at them, appreciate and become inspired by them. They give us something new and interesting to look at. He has painted people with 3 noses. It's abstract art.  I can't imagine a life or an existence here without it. Life would become so dull and uninspiring, same old same old.

Knowing C could never equal anything other then A or B, would give me 100% confidence in C and make for absolute security with it. Sometimes, we want that. Do we want that with everything, where nothing has the potential to change and become something else?

I sit here and think, "C has no potential to become anything other then A and Bs equal again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

It would be like, being Bill Murray in the movie groundhog day before he started making changes. If A=C, he never would be able to have become something else as the days repeated themselves. Remember when he became so bored with it, he went so crazy he killed himself everyday for a while? :lol:

What made the movie so wonderful was that while, the rest stayed the same, he was a movable variable. And then as he became something different from day to day, the constants were changed by that and in the end, so was he.

We are living in the abstract diploid and it's real. One day is never exactly the same as the day before. That unknown variable is always a part of the equation and logic can't touch that. That unknown variable is what keeps you from being able to predict EXACTLY everything that will happen tomorrow.

If you knew that today would be exactly the same as tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that, and you couldn;t change anything, how long would it be, before you went crazy and wanted to kill yourself?

How long would it be, before you were on your knees begging, for something, even just a hair to be out of place from where it was yesterday?

And that's where the abstract comes in. It gives us reason to go on, never knowing what's just around the river bend and wanting to see it when we tire of the old view. It gives us hope, that something new and different and better can happen or become of something or someone. It give us inspiration which gives us ideas for how to make that change. It could be anything because of the unknown variable.

The abstract allows for the scenery to keep changing, and for us to change in response to that and for us to change it and have a new response to what was, that is now something else because of us.

It may not be magic, but it makes life often feel as if it is. I'd never want to know a life without that.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153035 - 01/08/06 01:33 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Here's the thing. Normally, nothing is absolute.

However, under certain circumstances, such as a student acing a test, there's no room for error, and he/she has scored a 100%.

Since these situations are so rare, and only happen under the most controlled enviroments, its quite easy to get lost.


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5153041 - 01/08/06 01:37 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, if there is an abstract rule that says, when Z is present C no longer = B but now C=Z. Z and A are not equal.




So, you're saying essentially the same thing as the other mystic-heads above. Specifically:

As long as we grant that an 'abstraction' can defeat logic, it is impossible (in light of the potential use of an 'abstraction' as you described) for something to be impossible.

Is that correct?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineSpyker
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Fospher]
    #5153073 - 01/08/06 01:56 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yesterday is today is tomorrow... A=B=C=where the fuck is my infinity button ! haha

Science is the asking of how and mysticism is the asking of why, either way both are necessary. Any questions that we ask are good as whether they are the correct questions or not, they focus the collective lens of mans understanding and knowledge even if only in application of the fact of their occurance. Collectively our picture become clearer.

The foundations of science ARE shaking.. Google physics and read the news on some news sites. Science is more about discovering the illusionary nature of existance everyday. Ask the questions, even the difficult ones, follow your logic, marvel at the simplicity and complexity of the creation.

Seek and ye shall find.. It is not the time to be a sheep.

Some have scored over 100% in tests where tested on untaught work as well.Work from grades ahead for if you actually finished the exam before the time allowed. Some get it all right, some have vision.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Fospher]
    #5153095 - 01/08/06 02:18 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Here's the thing. Normally, nothing is absolute.

Now I'm even more confused.

Let's get back to the seminal question:

"Is there nothing that is absolutely 100% impossible?"


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153104 - 01/08/06 02:27 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

While something is still an unknown, I'd say yes, that's correct, providing the unknown variable "abstract" is allowed to play.

If you put something under tight controls, like giving a student the answers to the test while he is taking it then, it will be impossible for him to fail it. It will only become possible for him to fail, if an abstract variable came into play. Then, the student could refuse to write the answers given to him and doodle in the lines if he chose to.

The abstract allows for unpredicatable change to take place.

Maybe mystic heads are mystic heads because they abhor routine where others find great security in it. Perhaps they abhor predictability and enjoy surprises and the unexpected-makes life more exciting. Perhaps they enjoy a change of scenery more then others have quench for it-mmmmm nothing like a new vista to behold and explore. Perhaps they abhor the idea of using of force to have absolute control over things. Perhaps they abhor, following what has been and want to see what else can be. That's what it is for me anyway, why I am more of a mystic head then a science head. It's not because I don't understand logic , appreciate it, or even use it myself at times. It has its place and uses in service to me. I've seen he life living in logic, ration and putting things under tight controls for predictability has given to my father. I don't want that life for myself.

Perhaps it's because he took it to such a boring, brutal, agonizing and dull extreme is why I am so out there and loving it.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153126 - 01/08/06 02:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Let's get back to the seminal question:

"Is there nothing that is absolutely 100% impossible?"


Yes there is. It is 100% impossible for an entity to not act in accordance with its nature. It is impossible for an entity to act apart from its nature or against it. Every entity has a nature; it is specific, noncontradictory, limited; it has certain attributes and no others. Thus for example, under ordinary circumstances, if a child releases a balloon filled with helium, only one outcome is possible: the balloon will rise. The balloon will not turn into a pumpkin, nor will it emit music like a radio.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153127 - 01/08/06 02:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Oh! :blush:

And I would say that an abstraction never truly defeats logic as logic never truly defeats abstraction.

Defeat is the wrong word.

Logic will always hold its own within a realm of logic.

The abstract will always hold its own within the abstract.

After that, if you put the two in the same ring, all you get is one guy running in circles while the other jumps up and down, this way and that. They never touch each other.

The two are not competitors for finding the truth.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5153143 - 01/08/06 02:49 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Dip: "Is there nothing that is absolutely 100% impossible?"

Jigz: While something is still an unknown, I'd say yes, that's correct

Now I'm even more confused.

First you agree with my question and say nothing is impossible, then you say that it IS impossible for something to be impossible (given the 'abstract' thingie).

Which one is it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5153163 - 01/08/06 02:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Skorp ,

add to what you said, "within the laws of nature the entity is in" and then, I would agree with it.

Even then, I am only agreeing that something can be determined to be impossible- within, a controlled environment. That's what the mystic heads are pointing out about the use of logic. It's limited to controls.

Take the helium balloon outside of the law of gravity and put it in a vacuum and then, it won't rise.

If you put an entity into an unknown law of nature, then there is no predicting what it can or will do. We don't have all of the laws of nature figured out yet. Science has found that once you get to the plank scale, the laws change and predictability flies out the window.

I was just thinking about what I said what happens when you put the abstract and logic into the same ring to compete. Logic runs in circles "science heads going out and around and back to the first question again and again. Mystics jumping up and down, this way and that never knowing where they'll go next.

And they neither makes an impact on the other.:rofl2:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153164 - 01/08/06 02:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What IS impossible is for a mystic-head to be logically cornered and not come up with a standard excuse from the list as to why your impeccable logic does not apply.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Impossible! Or Maybe Not? [Re: Diploid]
    #5153175 - 01/08/06 03:00 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

First you agree with my question and say nothing is impossible, then you say that it IS impossible for something to be impossible (given the 'abstract' thingie).




If it is impossible for something to be impossible, thats the same as agreeing with you that nothing is impossible ( providing the abstract clause).

It can't be a which is it when they are the same thing.

You have me confused. Did you mean to type something else? :confused:

edit-had to add "providing absrtact clause"


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/08/06 03:12 AM)

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