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Offlineshoebottom
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Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions
    #5118127 - 12/29/05 07:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I read the 60/40 casing tek and have a few questions..... Anyone?

I am working with uncompressed coir (not the blocks I mean) Instead I got the "bales".

1) What ratios seem to work for this mix? Meaning - would 60% wet coir and 40% dry vermic. apply here? Or 40% wet vermic?

2) Any tips on how to prepare the mixture? Start with wet coir and mix in wet or dry vermiculite? Add calcium carb. at what point during mixing?

3) Has anyone here ever cased beds of straw based compost with a coir/vermic casing?

4) How deep should I lay down the casing - my beds are 5" deep of fully colonized compost. Thinking .5" ? Last time I used 1" of 100% vermiculite which was a DISASTER (no gas exchange, lots of aborts, overly wet - turned compost into mud)

5) Any idea how much calcium carb. to add?? I know this varies according to many factors - I read 5% by volume (wetted volume??)

6) How does everyong feel about using this casing without sterilizing it? The commercial guys use unsterilized peat - and I believe coir is cleaner than peat. I would sterilize it but cannot - 150 cu. ft of this mixture is tough to sterilize. (BTW I use RO water put through a UV light)

I know this seems overly "questiony" but I am about to prepare 150 cubic feet of this casing. And I have never worked with coir.


The guys at VGROVE.COM know much about coir (but know none of this). (This is where I got my coir) They are great guys with good prices and have EVERYTHING coir. THANKS!

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Offlinethenewguy05
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5118136 - 12/29/05 07:39 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

1)more vermiculite than coco coir
2)i've skipped the calcium but start with the coir then vermiculite, then calcium.
3)it seems to keep the straw at a good moisture content.
4) KEEP THE CASING LAYER SMALL. never exceed 2" and that is for an 8"-12" substrate depth. with something as small as 5" i would go no more than 1/4 inch. if you were going with a 3 inch depth i would say 1/8" casing layer. remember, you don't want to waste the mycelium's energy.
5)add it dry. your contents are already wet they will hydrate it.
6)sterilize it. don't waste your time by not. takes ten minutes in the microwave.

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Offlineshoebottom
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: thenewguy05]
    #5118147 - 12/29/05 07:48 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks Newguy. No calcium? Would you not want to add some as a pH buffer - I heard the casing layer gets acidic as time goes on. I like the advice on the casing depth. I would like to sterilize the mixture but, like I said, I need to prepare LOTS. I will sterilize a good portion as a control test to see... Thanks for your advice

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Offlinethenewguy05
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5118186 - 12/29/05 08:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

oh you'll want to add the calcium to the coir, i just haven't run out of rye yet so i haven't been to the feed store in a long time.

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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5118187 - 12/29/05 08:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

60/40 mix does not need a buffer....that is what makes it, IMO, the best casing mix to use. Simple and does the job very well. A buffer would not really hurt, but is def. not needed.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5118195 - 12/29/05 08:18 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

150 cubic feet of coir mixed with verm is enough to put a 1" casing layer over 3600 12" X 12" trays. That is more than most major commercial mushroom farms are capable of making at once. If you've never used coir, I'd suggest starting out a tad smaller.

Secondly, I'm no fan of using coir for a casing. It has so many nutes that the mycelium tends to fully colonize it, leading to overlay. I've often said that a coir casing layer is actually a second substrate layer, and in fact I've spawned to plain coir and used it as a bulk substrate. It's at least as good as cow manure when used that way.

I'd recommend peat/verm. Add calcium carbonate or hydrated lime at the rate of 5% of the peat by volume, disregarding the verm in that calculation. Add gypsum at the rate of 5% by volume to the whole mix and do include the verm in that calculation. Moisten to field capacity and pasteurize for an hour or two at 150F. Do not sterilize.
RR


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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5118217 - 12/29/05 08:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Them's fightin' words RR :wink:

You do make a good point....60/40 is more likely to become overlayed, but on the other end of it, IME, I have noticed that I am more prone to contam problems with Peat casings, even with proper sterilization/pasteurization etc.

I've never really had a problem with 60/40 overlaying, but I can see where you are coming from.  Usually when I see people's 60/40 casing that is overlayed, it is usually due to fruiting too late.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference, but you make some good points.

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Offlineshoebottom
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5119029 - 12/29/05 01:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Coir Specs can be found at:

http://vgrove.com/benefitsofcoir.htm

I am growing on beds that are 20' long by 5.5' wide... not the 12"x12" boxes.


OK - I'm just typing like a mad man and going off here but bare with me and comment....... please.

Commercial farms, as far as I know, generally do not pasteurize their peat based casing. Old school agaricus growers used to use soil as a casing material - in which case I can see the need to pasteurize this "dirtier" material. It seems agaricus growers pasteurize - rather than sterilize (as someone pointed out above)- their casing if they choose to do so as not to kill off the beneficial micro organisms within. These micro organisms within the casing seem to be rarely talked about in the Psilo world - why? I am not sure. Maybe it's an agaricus thing. Their importance is rarely talked about around here. The Stamets + Chilton books talk of the importance of the "micro flora" in casing.


OK -- - Going off here further. Compost people - sit up...


If you read the stamets blue book where it talks about building a compost pile - the amounts of manure + straw (+ supplements) to use (known as building synthetic compost) are tailored to produce a compost with a nitrogen content of 1.7% (check the chart out he provides to obtain the nitrogen percentages - the back of the book lists N levels for all sorts of different additives)

My point here is I believe that this would be a great agaricus compost formula - but as far as Psilos - I think there would be way too much nitrogen in such a pile. When I build my compost piles (for psilos) - I end up with a calculated N of .4% . Chicken manure,straw,molasses,bran,gypsum,water make up my pile - takes 22 days or so to finish with 4-5 turns.

I would be GREATLY INTERESTED in anyones interpretation of how a compost pile should be made specifically for Psilos!! Can anyone comment on an ideal N level as well??

I have had comments like "You can't grow psilos on chicken manure". If that is what you are thinking too - you need to understand the compost pile and the function of adding a high N content supplement. As well, one needs to understand the phase II pasteurization of said compost - especially the removing of the ammonia in the latter stages of pasteurization.... I could go on and on.......

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5119263 - 12/29/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Not to be a dick or anything, but why start a project as large as this sounds without having the answers to these questions already?


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5119284 - 12/29/05 02:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shoebottom said:
I am growing on beds that are 20' long by 5.5' wide... not the 12"x12" boxes.





Even with that being the case, you have enough coir to case that size bed about 30 times at a 1" going by RR's calculations.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Coir / Vermiculite casing prep. questions [Re: shoebottom]
    #5119569 - 12/29/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>>>I would be GREATLY INTERESTED in anyones interpretation of how a compost pile should be made specifically for Psilos!! Can anyone comment on an ideal N level as well??<<<

Compost tailored just for dung lovers: carbon / nitrogen ratio <17:1, nitrogen 2.6%, phosphorus 0.2-05%, potassium 1.5-2.5%, calcium 1.5-2.5%, available boron <2 ppm, available ammonium <10 ppm, soluble salts 3.0-5 OdS/m.



EDIT TO ADD

I am not a fan of the 60/40 Verm/Coir casing mixture.

I prefer 45 peat (pH adjusted), 45 Verm & 10% Coir.

I got lazy the some days back & made a 60/40 mix.

Then, cased a few trays with it.
Then, forgot about them for a few days.
When I did check them.

This is what I found.
SumBitch's colonized the casing layer FAST.



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Edited by agar (12/29/05 04:46 PM)

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