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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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How can a Jew still have faith?
    #5090564 - 12/21/05 04:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Throughout history, many rulers, empires and nations have everywhere oppressed, persecuted, expulsed, massacred, or even slaughtered their Jewish populations.

After knowing his history, how can a Jew still have faith in his religion, his God? How can a Jew stay faithful to a God which is supposed to have created humankind and supposively cares about it?

In Judaism, it is believed that God determines the course of events in this world. How could such an omniscient and omnipotent God could have let his people suffer and die the way they did? Where was God when he was supposed to show care for his Creation?

Surely all of the 6 million Jews that died only half a century ago hadn't all been violaters of His commandments. Surely this genocide wasn't God's way of punishing the unfaithful.

Because if I was a Jew, that would be the only way that I'd be able to explain to myself how such an event could have taken place under God's all-seeing eye, under his knowledge and his "care". And I wonder how true Jews explain this to themselves, how they arrange the facts and their religion together in their mind, so that Judaism is still a valid path to walk and so that God is still an entity worth devoting their life to.


So what does that make of God? Is God just a big scam? Is he like a supernatural politician, making lots of promises but never holding them? Or does the problem come from humans, who are uncapable of following and respecting God's requirements?







If God existed it would be necessary to abolish him.


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Edited by exclusive58 (12/21/05 06:07 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090576 - 12/21/05 04:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

A Jew can still have faith by believing he is a Jew. It's that simple. To see that each one of us is unique and a spiritual expression of creation releases one from the need to be other than what one is. Which is not any lable like "Jew".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/21/05 04:25 PM)

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090601 - 12/21/05 04:32 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with Icelander. Also, having been raised in a Jewish house hold, one potential arguement could be that it is all a part of his plan, and what he does is not always rational. Jews have been persecuted through a lot of history, as you say. God only intervened when all the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians, according to legend, at least.

Personally I don't put much stock in these as literal stories, and more as metaphors for finding God and his Kingdom in our own hearts.

But yes, the arguement you suggest is the one that my father generally uses/used to justify his atheism. "Since there has been no evidence found in 'modern' times of a deity, then clearly one must not exist." Which is essentially the argumentum ad ignorantiam.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: Icelander]
    #5090611 - 12/21/05 04:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
A Jew can still have faith by believing he is a Jew. It's that simple. To see that each one of us is unique and a spiritual expression of creation releases one from the need to be other than what one is. Which is not any lable like "Jew".




Well not all Jews must see this, elsewise there would be no such thing as a Jew, there would be no need to follow this commandment or that commandment and adhere to Judaism, since there would be no other need than to be.

By followong Judaism, a person is labelising himself as a Jew. What I'm asking though is how can anyone still have faith in Judaism?

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090623 - 12/21/05 04:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

and I answered. Think hard about how rational people believe irrational things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090642 - 12/21/05 04:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

By followong Judaism, a person is labelising himself as a Jew. What I'm asking though is how can anyone still have faith in Judaism?

Not necessarily. There are many different forms of Judaism, from Orthodox to Kabbalists to Messianic Jews. I take some of my beliefs from the Kaballah, as I do other beliefs from other religious traditions. Religions "belong" to me, I don't "belong" to them. In other words, by following certain Jewish ideas, you are not the property of them and cannot thus be labelled a Jew. In fact, a label is just a word, a symbol. A Jew to one person may not be a Jew to another.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: dblaney]
    #5090695 - 12/21/05 05:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

When asked what religion you adhere to, what do you say?

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090726 - 12/21/05 05:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Generally I say that I'm a scholor of all religions, and I pick and choose as I see fit, but out of what's out there, I identify fairly closely with Taoism and Vedanta Buddhism.

What about you?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

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Posts: 2,146
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: dblaney]
    #5090763 - 12/21/05 05:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Me? I don't adhere to any religion. I don't like to endulge myself in any system.

I see what you were saying now. I understand that you find some of the jewish religious ideas enriching for you, and that you aren't a strict follower of the religion. But alot still are, right? I guess you should know since you've been raised in a Jewish family.

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090823 - 12/21/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, there are some people...actually quite a number, that follow Judaism just because it's what they've always done. They've never really questioned its foundation. They will obey silly customs religiously and flaunt others openly. Judaism has a lot to offer culturally as well as in terms of faith, and I think that attracts some people too, as I've seen people have lavish decorations and Jewish artwork while they don't follow the religious aspect of it much at all.

And then of course there are those who actually believe in the old grandfather in the sky.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090857 - 12/21/05 05:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Surely all of the 6 million Jews that died only half a decade ago...

What happened in 2000 that I missed?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: Swami]
    #5090862 - 12/21/05 05:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Ehhh, half a decade, six decades, it's all the same in philosophical time.

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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: dblaney]
    #5090930 - 12/21/05 06:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Yes, there are some people...actually quite a number, that follow Judaism just because it's what they've always done. They've never really questioned its foundation.




Its really too bad that people don't study their religion before dedicating their life to it...

Quote:

And then of course there are those who actually believe in the old grandfather in the sky.




From what I understand, in Judaism God is non-physical.





Anyways, you answered my first question when you said that "it is all a part of his plan, and what he does is not always rational". However that kind of contradicts the Hebrew Bible, which says that if you do everything God asks from you, God will take care of you...

If I was a Jew, I'd be worried about God and what awful things he still has waiting for us in order to achieve his "plan".
Hell, if I was a kid Jew, I'd be wondering what the hell the Jews did wrong for being punished so severly!

I'm still confused as to how anybody can still buy all this.








Can you believe that some people are still Christians?


--------------------

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: Swami]
    #5090948 - 12/21/05 06:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

:smirk: oops, i meant century

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5090955 - 12/21/05 06:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying that there wasn't an OY 2k?  :wink:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5091246 - 12/21/05 07:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Can you believe that I'm a Jewish Christian? It's true, even though most of both faiths are mythological. But mythology is a culture's collective manifestation of Universal themes, of archetypes of the Collective Unconscious which means that myths are depicting through fictional human dramas whole realms of experience. Death, rebirth, resurrection, judgement, reward, punishment, etc. - are all metaphysical conditions of the human soul that harken back to ancient Egypt (in the Jewish/Christian traditions). Similarities exist in Tibetan Buddhism with dangers and magical names to give one clear passage in the post-mortem condition. Gnostics had similar practices for getting past the Archons. The whole world from time immemorial has these religious traditions. Now if you're a simple materialist, then there is gonna be no talking with you. If you're not an Intuitive Personality, than you are not given to great leaps of 'what if?' But you have obviously not attempted to learn anything significant about mytho-religious images and have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe you could read Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth before you take an seemingly superior stand to the profound mysteries which you just don't understand yet.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5092643 - 12/22/05 04:35 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'm interested to see what that book says about the power of myths, I should check it out. What remains a fact though is that myths don't have the power to save the people that believe in them. Which is exactly what is suggested in the ancient texts, such as the Hebrew Bible, which claim to be the words of God.

I understand that you personally perceive these texts as being mythological, but I doubt that this is the way the majority of Jews/Christians have been interpreting them. Most of them read and follow their religion's texts in a litteral manner. Would you not agree?


--------------------

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5093057 - 12/22/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

This is the crux of the Gnostic vs. the Literalist interpretation of scripture, and it is the thesis of the book The Laughing Jesus by Freke and Gandy. Originally, there WERE no 'empty tomb narratives' (the Gospels) in the Christian faith. In fact early Christians didn't call themselves Christians for 150 years or so. They were followers of 'The Way' within Judaism and they continued to worship in the Temple at Jerusalem.

The earliest writings were certain letters by [St.] Paul, who never met Jesus in the flesh. Paul met the 'Resurrected' Jesus in visionary states, and recognized Jesus' eternal nature. Paul never mentions anything pertaining to a 'resusitated corpse' - the images of quasi-physical resurrection that the four Gospels depict (among dozens of other Gospels that were rejected because they could not appeal to the lowest common denominator, the simplest minded and hence most material-minded individuals). Unfortunately, this Literalist approach is what was pushed by Emperor Constantine and the so-called Church Fathers whom he hired to create the Bible as we know it.

Not all the letters we have with Paul's name were actually written by that historical person. It was common to attribute someone of fame to writings back in the day, and critical analysis of writings reveals many differences in content, attitude, etc. The original Christians for example were egalitarian towards women, then suddenly there is a reversion to anti-women sentiment about women keeping quiet in church, not to preach or teach or do anything! This particular change reflects the Roman attitude even more that the former Jewish attitude of patriarchy.

"Paul's authentic letters are full of thoroughly Gnostic ideas and terminology. He tells us he experienced Jesus as a vision of light and everything he knows about Jesus came through 'revelation.' When Paul tells us 'the secret' of Christianity, it has nothing to do with an historical Jesus. The great secret in Christianity, Paul declares, is the mystical revelation of 'Christ in you' [Colossians 1:25-28]...Paul's message is the perennial Gnostic message. We are all one. He teaches that when we are 'baptised into union with Jesus...there is no such thing as Jew and Greek, slave and freeman, male and female, for we are all one person in Christ Jesus....'The only elements of the Jesus myth that Paul mentions are Christ's death and resurrection, which Paul understands as symbolizing the process of initiation. By sharing in Jesus' death and resurrection initiates symbolically die to their 'old self' and resurrect 'in Christ.' Paul reminds his students 'the person you once were has been crucified with Christ.' p. 62
The Laughing Jesus

Now this material is not new, but it is explained to the layperson with clarity in this book. It is radical for those who have grown up and been hypnotised through repetition to believe the mainstream doctrinal party line. That line would be something along the lines of a mystical reverberation of Jesus salvific death on the cross through the rest of history so that:

"According to Literalists all you need to do was believe the Jesus story was true and you would be saved." p. 69

Unfortunately, the world is as evil as it has ever been. Paul himself seemed to misunderstand the immediacy of the end of the world and Jesus' return in clouds of glory. The End of Days, or the end of time, Gnostically interpreted (and one which reflects the same 'fully-realized eschatology' in Hinduism and Buddhism - that it's all here & now, not in any 'future time'), is the end of time and is a possibility for everyone in any moment. We are able to transcend space-time right here and now. This is Being-in-Christ. Christ is the mind of the Logos - that aspect of God with which humans can 'interface with' (in modern terms) or 'be caught up in' (in classical Biblical speak). Paul can be mistaken because there is no such thing as scriptural infallibility. The letters of Paul were letters to early churches, not holy writ. They were made into holy writ by the order of Emperor Constantine.

Understand please that mythological does NOT mean unreal. The mythic domain is a timeless psychospiritual reality which orders our lives according to timeless, universal themes like self-sacrifice (ego-death), the establishment of Compassion as The Way to Be ("I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me."), and the expansion of this Being-in-Christ which results in our being transformed into Christ (Theosis, in the Greek Orthodox Church) and hence our establishment as a being of Compassion, in God, which is Resurrection.

The Gnostic interpretation draws the mythological into the psychological whereas the Literalist does no such thing: just believe the stories and one is 'justified by faith.' If one wants to become higher/holier (sanctification), then there are the precribed techniques according to Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox guidelines. Meanwhile, there are too many Literalists who are brainwashed into the monsters that they are (Jewish, Christian and Muslim monsters) who insist that they alone understand their 'unfallible' scriptures and those who disagree with them are worthy of damnation. This attitude of hate is justified by interpretation of aspects of scriptures which themselves are hateful, but being 'infallible' makes it perfectly OK to commit atrocities against humankind.

This post is for you and for anyone else who senses that there is Truth buried in the dungpiles of religious scriptures and dogmas of all faiths, particularly in the Peoples of the Book. [Whew!  :tongue:]



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinekotik
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5093539 - 12/22/05 11:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I suggest everyone read as much of Joseph Campbell's work as you can.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How can a Jew still have faith? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5093702 - 12/22/05 12:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
After knowing his history, how can a Jew still have faith in his religion, his God? How can a Jew stay faithful to a God which is supposed to have created humankind and supposively cares about it?




This is the test. :grin:

Are you set to sacrifice your first-born son?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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