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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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darwin vs darwin...
    #4993771 - 11/29/05 11:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

american prospect...


Quote:

Having It Both Ways
Conservatives are quick to cast doubt on Darwin's biological theory of evolution, but take Social Darwinism as the gospel truth.

By Robert B. Reich
Web Exclusive: 11.28.05

The Conservative Movement, as its progenitors like to call it, is now mounting a full-throttled attack on Darwinism even as it has thoroughly embraced Darwin?s bastard child, social Darwinism. On the face of it, these positions may appear inconsistent. What unites them is a profound disdain for science, logic, and fact.

In The Origin of the Species, published 150 years ago, Charles Darwin amassed evidence suggesting that mankind evolved through the ages from simpler forms of life through a process he called "natural selection." This insight has become the foundation of modern biological science. But it also greatly disturbs those who believe the Bible?s account of creation to be literally true. In recent years, as America?s Conservative Movement has grown, some of these people have taken over local and state school boards with the result that, for example, Kansas?s new biology standards now single out evolution as a "controversial theory." Until a few weeks ago, teachers in Dover, Pennsylvania, were required to tell their students they should explore "intelligent design" as an alternative to evolution. (The good citizens of Dover just booted out the school board responsible for this, summoning a warning from Conservative Coalition broadcaster Pat Robertson that God would wreak disaster on them.)

Social Darwinism was developed some thirty years after Darwin?s famous book by a social thinker named Herbert Spencer. Extending Darwin into a realm Darwin never intended, Spencer and his followers saw society as a competitive struggle in which only those with the strongest moral character should survive, or else the society would weaken. It was Spencer, not Darwin, who coined the phrase "survival of the fittest." Social Darwinism thereby offered a perfect moral justification for America?s Gilded Age, when robber barons controlled much of American industry, the gap between rich and poor turned into a chasm, urban slums festered, and the wealthy bought off politicians. It allowed John D. Rockefeller, for example, to claim that the fortune he had accumulated through the giant Standard Oil Trust was "merely a survival of the fittest, ... the working out of a law of nature and a law of God."

The modern Conservative Movement has embraced Social Darwinism with no less fervor than it has condemned Darwinism. Social Darwinism gives a moral justification for rejecting social insurance and supporting tax cuts for the rich. "In America," says Robert Bork, "the rich are overwhelmingly people ? entrepreneurs, small businessmen, corporate executives, doctors, lawyers, etc. ? who have gained their higher incomes through intelligence, imagination, and hard work." Any transfer of wealth from rich to poor thereby undermines the nation?s moral fiber. Allow the virtuous rich to keep more of their earnings and pay less in taxes, and they?ll be even more virtuous. Give the non-virtuous poor food stamps, Medicaid, and what?s left of welfare, and they?ll fall into deeper moral torpor.

There is, of course, an ideological inconsistency here. If mankind did not evolve according to Darwinist logic, but began instead with Adam and Eve, then it seems unlikely societies evolve according to the survival-of-the-fittest logic of Social Darwinism. By the same token, if you believe one?s economic status is the consequence of an automatic process of natural selection, then, presumably, you?d believe that human beings represent the culmination of a similar process, over the ages. That the conservative mind endures such cognitive dissonance is stunning, but not nearly as remarkable as the repeated attempts of conservative mouthpieces such as the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal and the Weekly Standard to convince readers the conservative movement is intellectually coherent.

The only consistency between the right?s attack on Darwinism and embrace of Social Darwinism is the utter fatuousness of both. Darwinism is correct. Scientists who are legitimized by peer review and by published research are unanimous in their view that evolution is a fact, not a theory. Social Darwinism, meanwhile, is hogwash. Social scientists have long understood that one?s economic status in society is not a function of one?s moral worth. It depends largely on the economic status of one?s parents, the models of success available while growing up, and educational opportunities along the way.

A democracy is imperiled when large numbers of citizens turn their backs on scientific fact. Half of Americans recently polled say they don?t believe in evolution. Almost as many say they believe income and wealth depend on moral worthiness. At a time when American children are slipping behind on international measures of educational attainment, especially in the sciences; when global competition is intensifying; and when the median incomes of Americans are stagnating and the ranks of the poor are increasing, these ideas, propagated by the so-called Conservative Movement, rapidly moving us backwards.

Robert B. Reich is co-founder of The American Prospect. A version of this column originally appeared on Marketplace.

? 2005 by The American Prospect, Inc.




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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (11/29/05 02:56 PM)

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Offlinewilshire
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4993795 - 11/29/05 11:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

the "social darwinism" the writer stereotypes all conservatives as embracing refers to a type of natural selection. creationists generally do not deny natural selection, but other aspects of darwin's evolution theory.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: wilshire]
    #4994070 - 11/29/05 12:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This asshole conflates Conservative with "stupid, ignorant Jesus freak". These are not interchangable terms, as much as the asshole would like us to believe.

As to Social Darwinism this is the first time I heard that there was a morality element to it, as in "If you are rich you must be a moral person". Really, I never even heard that at all. Maybe I am a stupid ignorant conservative (we can definitely leave Jesus out of it). It is not however the least bit obvious to me that a "survival of the fittest (notice no morality attached to the meaning of "fit") notion is inapplicable to socio-economic success. This is, of course, no more absolute on an individual basis than biological Darwinism is, but can certainly, nonetheless, be observed as a characteristic inherent in the general population. "All men created equal" is only a legal rule. It is not a statement about the real world. Einstein does not equal mongoloid. Derek Jeter does not equal Chris Farley.

As appealing as the notion of social darwinism is it does not actually lend itself to much value in an evolution of the species sense. Successful people in America actually tend to have fewer children. (You can figure out which way that cause and effect arrow goes on your own time). Thus it is clearly of no relevance to any sort of notion of change. The man is misapplying a metaphor and then strictly using it's root to ascribe assertions from one theory to another, wholly different one.
.
I would also like to point out that I do not believe Darwin, in "On The Origin of Species", ever even mentioned human evolution. I do know that the last line in his introduction is this;
"Furthermore, I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the most important, but not the exclusive, means of modification."
Further, the fool posits this;
"It was Spencer, not Darwin, who coined the phrase "survival of the fittest."
In reply I offer this chapter heading from "On The Origin of Species"
"Chapter IV: Natural Selection; Or the Survival of the Fittest"
Who does this asshole think he's kidding.
And just who is this asshole? From his bio we have this;
"Reich has been a member of the faculties of Harvard?s John F. Kennedy School of Government and of Brandeis University. He received his B.A. from Dartmouth College, his M.A. from Oxford University, where he was a Rhodes Scholar, and his J.D. from Yale Law School."
.
I'm going to go about two tenths of an inch out on a limb here and say that this asshole has gotten so far into the agenda of Conservative demonization that he has deliberately forsaken any semblance of scholarship and is now spouting bullshit he either knows is untrue or deliberately avoids researching because he knows he won't get the answer he needs to support his position. Stupid? No. Asshole? Yes, very much so. A Rhodes scholar who doesn't know Darwin? Hmmmmm.
.
For the full text of "On The Origin of Species" go here;
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/origin_of_species/


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4994096 - 11/29/05 12:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Just to make my position crystal clear, I am 100% behind the notion Intelligent Design is nonsense, god is for suckers and social darwinism is a misapplied metaphor. I am also strongly conservative.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4994158 - 11/29/05 01:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Annapurna1 Said:

"Having It Both Ways
Conservatives are quick to cast doubt on Darwin's biological theory of evolution, but take Social Darwinism as the gospel truth."




This conservative goes on record saying JESUS can Suck my Dick.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5001396 - 12/01/05 05:25 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

jesus freaks or not..there is actually less grounds on which to refute literal creationism and/or "intelligent design" than there is to refute judge "virtuous rich" bork...and yet conservatives seem nonetheless oblivious to the reality of enron...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflinePrajna
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Registered: 10/08/05
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5003625 - 12/01/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I am one of those "Jesus freaks", and I personally don't see why people think that Darwinism and God are so incompatible...

Science is about finding the truth behind HOW God did what he did, why does it have to be at odds with the idea of a master plan to it all...

It is PROVEN that we have evolved into what we are today, any logical person could not refute this, but that does not mean that we didn't evolve because God wanted us to evolve...

It is only those who take the Bible literally who can't see eye to eye with Mr. Darwin, and I personally don't have a whole lot of patience for those who take the Bible that literally.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Prajna]
    #5008606 - 12/02/05 10:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

even more mind-boggling is how so many ppl..a majority..the authour claims..agree with bork...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5008838 - 12/03/05 12:08 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Half of Americans recently polled say they don?t believe in evolution.




Saying that god created humans in present form does not necessarily mean they don't believe in evolution.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml

I wonder why they don't take a poll that asks the simple question, "do you belive in evolution?"

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Offlinefeeltheholyghost
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Registered: 12/03/05
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Catalysis]
    #5009129 - 12/03/05 02:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If the theory of darwins evolution is concrete where is the fossils that show transition? Without these, vertical evolution requires faith. Of course horizontal evolution has taken place, no doubt about that.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: feeltheholyghost]
    #5009572 - 12/03/05 07:20 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

in other words..theres more evidence in favour of adam & eve than there is in favour of bork...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: feeltheholyghost]
    #5009719 - 12/03/05 09:26 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If the theory of darwins evolution is concrete where is the fossils that show transition?

That fossils form at all is pretty remarkable. Think about what has to happen. An animal has to die in a place where it won't be eaten, where rain and other erosion will not occur for long enough to allow sediments to cover the body, and where it will remain undisturbed by growing plant roots, foraging animals, land slides, earthquakes, [fill in the blank] for a very long time. Couple that with fairly picky pH requirements and it's amazing that fossils form at all.

So, given this difficult set of requirement for a fossil to form, it doesn't take much imagination to see that a continuum of species will never be found in the fossil record because fossils are very rare.

Still, the giant avalanche of nearly contiguous data from the fossil record, while not proving anything as nothing in science is ever proved, is exceedingly persuasive evidence that evolution occurs as described by modern evolutionary theory. Anyone who takes the time to study the theory and the available evidence for themselves rather than blindly regurgitate backward, ignorant church dogma will come to the same conclusion. :shrug:

By the way, it's interesting to note that church dogmatists are so hard-headed and reluctant to accept Truth over dogma that the Catholic Church only recently (1992) issued an encyclical apologizing to Galileo, and at long last, after 359 years, lifted the edict of Inquisition against him and admitted that there are indeed moons orbiting Jupiter.  :thumbdown:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: feeltheholyghost]
    #5010001 - 12/03/05 11:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Looking at the fossil record is only one way, the oldest way, of showing evidence for evolution. Much of our knowledge today comes from studying evolution on a molecular scale, that is by mapping genes and studying variability between organisms.

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Diploid]
    #5010002 - 12/03/05 11:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Transitional fossils exist. Its just the creationists invented this arguement because they are narcissistic sociopaths and will invent any lie they can to compensate for their own failures.

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #5010007 - 12/03/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Read these articles carefully. There's been too many lies about American science on these drug forums. True the liars are just hallucinating, but I'm tired of them recruiting suicide bombers with their lies. Also, all you have to do is look and you can see that there are more articles in American scientific journals and more US patents compared to any other country.


http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/braindrain2.htm

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/AgeBar1.htm

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/AgeBar2.htm

http://home.ripway.com/2003-12/43034/text/NobelPrizes.doc

Edited by Los_Pepes (12/03/05 11:08 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #5010576 - 12/03/05 01:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Los_Pepes said:
Transitional fossils exist. Its just the creationists invented this arguement because they are narcissistic sociopaths and will invent any lie they can to compensate for their own failures.




You have herewith justified, in my eyes only, your presence here.


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Offlinefeeltheholyghost
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Registered: 12/03/05
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5016403 - 12/05/05 01:35 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Where do these transitional fossils exist?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Re: darwin vs darwin... [Re: feeltheholyghost]
    #5016747 - 12/05/05 07:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

In th' ground foo.


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