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Offlineexclusive58
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The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial
    #4928192 - 11/13/05 06:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

So a second member of Saddam's defence lawyers has been killed, the head of Saddam's legal team is considering Saddam's already adjourned trial (until Nov. 28) to be canceled and as illegitimate, and is blaming US-led forces for the slaying of his second colleague.


Quote:

SADDAM LAWYERS THREATEN BOYCOTT

The chief lawyer for Saddam Hussein has said the former Iraqi leader's defence team will cease dealings with the court trying him for crimes against humanity.

The announcement came after the killing in Baghdad of a second member of the defence team acting for Saddam Hussein and his seven co-defendants.

Khalil al-Dulaimi said that defence lawyers were unable work when their safety was threatened.

He also said defence witnesses were too frightened to come forward.

"The defence committee has decided to consider the 28 November date [for the next hearing] cancelled and illegitimate," Mr Dulaimi told Reuters.

Mr Dulaimi also told reporters that he blamed US-led forces in Iraq for the killings.

"The occupation forces are responsible for this criminal incident, and they bear the responsibility of preserving the lives of the people regardless of their identity."

He and his team have been urged to accept protection from the state, but so far they have refused.

TRIBUNAL DILEMMA

Lawyer Adel al-Zubeidi was killed by gunmen in Baghdad on Tuesday. His colleague Thamer Hamoud al-Khuzaie was wounded.

The two men were defending Saddam Hussein's half-brother, Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, and former Vice-President Taha Yassin Ramadan.

Another lawyer, Sadoun al-Janabi, was abducted and murdered last month.

The threatened boycott highlights the chaos that has surrounded this trial, says the BBC's Jim Muir in Baghdad.

The former Iraqi leader's trial was adjourned until 28 November after several prosecution witnesses failed to turn up for the opening day on 19 October.

Four of the five judges for the trial, and most of the prosecution lawyers have remained anonymous for safety reasons, but the defence team's identities were not kept secret.

If the boycott is carried through, it will also present the tribunal with a dilemma, our correspondent says.

The tribunal has the power to oblige the defence team to attend, but this is supposed to be a fair trial by international standards, and it is hard to see how those criteria can be met when defence lawyers are being shot dead.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4421912.stm


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4928200 - 11/13/05 06:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Here's some other interesting information concerning this trial.

...The defence team said they want an independent international investigation into the abduction and assassination of defence lawyer Saadun Janabi, found dead on October 21.

...

The Saddam defence lawyers have said they want United Nations protection for meetings of the defence committee and the hiring of 15 bodyguards per lawyer to ensure their protection.

If the court cannot even protect the defence lawyers, "one has to question the legitimacy of the proceedings", said Raymond Brown, a US international law expert who in 2004 served as a defence co-counsel at the Special Court for Sierra Leone.

A court can not claim to be legitimate if it is linked to a regime that can not guarantee the safety of trial participants, Brown told Agence France Presse.

"No matter what it does, it raises the fundamental legitimacy of the process," said Brown. And if the defence lawyers refuse to participate, "that may precipitate a crisis", he said.

...

Security is directly linked to a key issue that has dogged the court which was set up with Iraq under US occupation right from the outset -- legitimacy.

"The tribunal has to be seen as fair if it is to have any modicum of legitimacy," said Michael Kelly, a US law professor who has written on Saddam and the trial of former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic.

The court "is not really in a political position to proceed with the trial of Saddam in absentia or unrepresented by counsel" when the trial re-opens on November 28, he said.

Spanish human rights judge Baltasar Garzon said in late October that Saddam should be tried in an international court to maximise impartiality.

Spanish human rights judge Baltasar Garzon said in late October that Saddam should be tried in an international court to maximise impartiality

...



Murder of defence lawyers threatens Saddam trial


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4928374 - 11/13/05 08:59 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

So Ba'athist deadenders who still support Hussein are murdering lawyers as a ploy to delay the trial. Does this really come as a surprise to anyone?





Phred


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: Phred]
    #4928400 - 11/13/05 09:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Deadender? ohh.. i see what you mean. but I don't think that's a real word, and i don't think that's the only possible explanation for this mess.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4928413 - 11/13/05 09:29 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Two lawyers have been killed so far. We have two possibilities here --

a) - they were killed because they were members of the defense team
b) - they were killed for reasons unrelated to the trial (i.e. random victims of senseless "insurgent" violence)

If it turns out to be b), then there is no need to discuss this further. But if it turns out to be a), then we are faced with two more possibilities --

c) - they were killed by Hussein supporters
d) - they were killed by Hussein haters

An argument can be made for either scenario, but it's more logical to presume c) than d).

Of course, when I say it's more logical, I am presuming the actors are themselves capable of logical thought. It may indeed turn out it was dumb Saddam haters who killed the lawyers -- Iraqis too dim to realize the deaths would provide fodder for a defense motion to delay the trial.

But excepting that possibility, it's more likely it was Saddam supporters (deadenders). For one thing, the tactics used are consistent with that of the other deadender attacks. For another thing, they have far more to gain from a delayed trial than do Saddam haters. The question to ask is "who benefits more?"





Phred


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: Phred]
    #4928601 - 11/13/05 11:32 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Could also have been killed by people unconcerned with Hussein specifically, who just want to cause a stink - ie. radical Islamists.


I don't really have an opinion on the situation.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: phi1618]
    #4928715 - 11/13/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:
Could also have been killed by people unconcerned with Hussein specifically, who just want to cause a stink - ie. radical Islamists.





That's what he meant by "b) - they were killed for reasons unrelated to the trial (i.e. random victims of senseless "insurgent" violence)", I think.

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: Redstorm]
    #4928730 - 11/13/05 12:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

That's not unrelated to the trail, though.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: phi1618]
    #4928763 - 11/13/05 12:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps in our mind it's not, but in the mind of the insurgents?

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: Redstorm]
    #4928803 - 11/13/05 12:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I don't really understand what you're saying.

I was just bringing up the possibility that the defense lawyers were killed for their involvement in the trial by people who don't care about the outcome of the trial.



Also, I don't really think it's exceptionally likely that Baathists did the killing, though it's certainly possible.

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: phi1618]
    #4928819 - 11/13/05 12:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

just to make my reasons for skepticism clearer:

I agree that the Baathists have an incentive to disrput the trial.
However, people associated with a strong-arm group opposed to the Baathists might want to punish people for associating w/ Saddam.
Or, people who were hurt by Saddam might want to express their anger by hurting those they associate w/ Saddam.
Or, someone might have a financial interest in Saddam or his associates.
Or, it could be people who want to disrupt what they see as an American farce.
Or, someone could percieve the lawyers as being American collaborators for their participation in the trial...

etc. etc. etc.

I think it's quite possible that Baathists want to dirupt the trial to keep Saddam alive for as long as possible. However, it seems a little unreasonable to assume that that's the case based the limited and almost certainly partially inaccurate information we have available through news outlets.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: phi1618]
    #4931761 - 11/14/05 09:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Did it ever come to anyone's mind that the american government might have some interests in disrupting this trial?

Why isn't this trial taken care of by an independent and international court? Why is the american government in tight control of this trial? Why can't the american government protect the lawyers of this trial?

A court can not claim to be legitimate if it is linked to a regime that can not guarantee the safety of trial participants


I will soon bring answers to these questions in a new post. I'm just real busy right now.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4931778 - 11/14/05 09:53 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why isn't this trial taken care of by an independent and international court?




Because the crimes being addressed occurred in Iraq, and were committed against the Iraqi people.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4931779 - 11/14/05 09:53 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)



Why cant someone just put a 10" shank in Saddam's gut.


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4931807 - 11/14/05 10:05 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

That does kind of bug me. Why didn't the US forces immediately kill Saddam if they didn't want his trial to bring up bothering facts concerning the Iraq-US connection of the last 40 years or so?

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: Redstorm]
    #4931837 - 11/14/05 10:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Why isn't this trial taken care of by an independent and international court?




Because the crimes being addressed occurred in Iraq, and were committed against the Iraqi people.





Milosevic was accused of genocide in the balkans, yet his trial took place in The Hague, Netherlands, at the UN International Criminal Tribunal, which was specifically put in place to try people such as Hitler, Milosevic AND Saddam who are guilty of crimes against humanity and genocide.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4931841 - 11/14/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

it bugs me that the way this trail is going, he will end up dying of old age in prison.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4931896 - 11/14/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The Balkans are not one unified state and do not share the same legal code or courts. Out of necessity, he (Milosevic) pretty much had to be tried in an international court.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: Redstorm]
    #4931981 - 11/14/05 11:08 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The balkans, which consisted of Serbia and Montenegro, was constituted as the Federal Republic of Yougoslavia in 1992, until 2001 when the name Yougoslavia was abolished. In between these two dates, Milosevic had committed the war crimes.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Chaos Revolving Around Saddam's Trial [Re: exclusive58]
    #4931987 - 11/14/05 11:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I understand that. When he was on trial, though, he could not be tried in one country b/c the crimes he committed had been taken against the citizens of more than one country (at that time).

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