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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Knowing your enemy
#4813614 - 10/16/05 10:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Knowing your enemy By Clifford D. May October 16, 2005
For more than a generation, a war was fought against the United States. Most Americans, however, didn't know it. And even those who did may have been puzzled about whom we were fighting. The war began in 1979, after Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini came to power in Iran and his followers, chanting "Death to America," seized our embassy in Tehran and took our diplomats prisoner. But we did not interpret that to mean we were at war with Iran. In 1983, members of the same movement bombed our embassy and Marine barracks in Beirut, killing hundreds. But we did not see ourselves at war with Hezbollah or its sponsors. In the 1990s, adherents of the same ideology -- totalitarian, supremacist, antidemocratic -- attacked Americans repeatedly: office workers in New York City, diplomats at embassies in Africa, military personnel in the Middle East. And in 1996, a wealthy Saudi exile published what he called a "Declaration of War Against the Americans." But even as we suffered these attacks, we did not acknowledge a war was being waged. In fact, most Americans believed they lived in a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity. There was even a "peace dividend" to be spent. The horrific attacks of September 11, 2001, were a wake-up call -- but the nation remained groggy. Since hijacking planes and crashing them into in the World Trade Center was an act of terrorism, we set about to fight a "war on terrorism" -- as though there were no movement driving terrorism and no ideology justifying violation of the age-old taboo against intentionally murdering women and children. The label persisted from that time until last week when President Bush, in a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy, made a conceptual leap. Linking attacks on civilians from New York to Casablanca, Sharm el-Sheik to Netanya, Mombasa to London, Istanbul to Beslan, Beirut to Bali, he argued such massacres "serve a clear and focused ideology, a set of beliefs and goals that are evil, but not insane." He added: "Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism." Mr. Bush carefully distinguished this ideology "from the religion of Islam," adding that it "exploits Islam" and targets Muslims who aspire to live in freedom, choose their own leaders and embrace pluralism. He noted, "Most of the victims claimed by the militants are fellow Muslims." Osama bin Laden and other militants murder in pursuit of a dream -- of conquest and domination. It is a vision, Mr. Bush said, openly stated "in videos, and audiotapes, and letters, and declarations, and Web sites." To achieve their dream, requires ending "American and Western influence in the broader Middle East.... Second, the militant network wants to use the vacuum created by an American retreat to gain control of a country, a base from which to launch attacks and conduct their war against non-radical Muslim governments." Deprived of their base in Afghanistan after September 11, 2001, "they've set their sights on Iraq. Bin Laden has stated: 'The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries. It's either victory and glory, or misery and humiliation.' " The president also quoted bin Laden's commander in Iraq, Abu Musab Zarqawi: "We will either achieve victory over the human race or we will pass to the eternal life."
Does the United States have both the will and way to stop such ruthless and determined ideologues? Mr. Bush revealed more than before about the progress made so far by the United States and its allies against Islamic extremists. "We've killed or captured nearly all of those directly responsible for the September 11attacks, as well as some of bin Laden's most senior deputies, al Qaeda managers and operatives in more than 24 countries; the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, who was chief of al Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf; the mastermind of the Jakarta and the first Bali bombings, a senior Zarqawi terrorist planner, who was planning attacks in Turkey, and many of al Qaeda's senior leaders in Saudi Arabia. Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least 10 serious al Qaeda terrorist plots since September 11, including three al Qaeda plots to attack inside the United States." Toward the end of the speech, Mr. Bush posed a question to those who argue America should settle for less than the defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq. "Would the United States and other free nations be more safe, or less safe," he asked, "with Zarqawi and bin Laden in control of Iraq, its people, and its resources?" And he offered his answer: "Having removed a dictator who hated free peoples," he said,
"we will not stand by as a new set of killers, dedicated to the destruction of our own country, seizes control of Iraq by violence." Surely, that is a point on which there ought to be broad and bipartisan consensus. Clifford D. May is president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and a nationally syndicated columnist.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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"We've killed or captured nearly all of those directly responsible for the September 11attacks"
Those DIRECTLY responsible all died in the crashes.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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MagicalMystery
turn off yourmind
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Swami]
#4816829 - 10/17/05 04:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you only consider the front-line troop putting his life on the line to be directly responsible,obsolving those who are in the planning and finance stages of being "directly responsible", can I assume that you no longer criticize Bush for his actions persuant to the Iraq war?
-------------------- "Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest." From the Declaration of the Continental Congress "We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood." Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939 "We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children." David Lane
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Ooooh.... Snap!
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MagicalMystery said: If you only consider the front-line troop putting his life on the line to be directly responsible,obsolving those who are in the planning and finance stages of being "directly responsible", can I assume that you no longer criticize Bush for his actions persuant to the Iraq war?
Since when is direct responsibility the only type of responsibility that can be criticized?
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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The war began in 1979, after Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini came to power in Iran and his followers, chanting "Death to America," seized our embassy in Tehran and took our diplomats prisoner. But we did not interpret that to mean we were at war with Iran.
I would hope not. You would have to be a fucking idiot to believe chanting "Death to america" qualifies as being at war with America.
In 1983, members of the same movement bombed our embassy and Marine barracks in Beirut
This is getting ridiculous. Members of "the same movement"? What "movement" is he referring to? Where are the lists of it's "members"?
a wealthy Saudi exile published what he called a "Declaration of War Against the Americans."
Big fucking deal. Another wealthy Saudi had a fantastic relationship with the Bush family.
In the 1990's fundamentalist Islam as proposed by Bin Laden was dying on it's ass. They were going nowhere and had very little support in the arab world.
as though there were no movement driving terrorism
Come again? "movement driving terrorism"? Is he making this shit up on the back of a cig packet?
when President Bush, in a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy, made a conceptual leap
Oh fuck. God preserve us from George Bush's "conceptual leaps".
Did God tell him this one?
Does the United States have both the will and way to stop such ruthless and determined ideologues?
So Bin Laden was in Iraq?
Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least 10 serious al Qaeda terrorist plots since September 11, including three al Qaeda plots to attack inside the United States."
Pardon me but why should we believe Bush's propaganda about this anymore than al-qaedas?
Toward the end of the speech, Mr. Bush posed a question to those who argue America should settle for less than the defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq. "Would the United States and other free nations be more safe, or less safe," he asked, "with Zarqawi and bin Laden in control of Iraq, its people, and its resources?"
Bin Laden in control of Iraq? Is this fucking idiot living on the same planet as the rest of us?
"we will not stand by as a new set of killers, dedicated to the destruction of our own country, seizes control of Iraq by violence."
The problem with this reeking horsecart of bullshit is it's the IRAQI'S who are fighting the occupation.
Surely, that is a point on which there ought to be broad and bipartisan consensus.
A consensus that would have as much to do with reality as the last Bush and Blair consensus that there were WMD in Iraq.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Alex213]
#4820908 - 10/18/05 02:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The war began in 1979, after Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini came to power in Iran and his followers, chanting "Death to America," seized our embassy in Tehran and took our diplomats prisoner. But we did not interpret that to mean we were at war with Iran.
I would hope not. You would have to be a fucking idiot to believe chanting "Death to america" qualifies as being at war with America.
Come on, Alex. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to figure out that the seizure of the embassy and the kidnapping of the diplomat as the main offensive acts, not the Death To America.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Redstorm]
#4820937 - 10/18/05 02:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Come on Red, does taking over an embassy in Iran really mean you are at war with America?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Alex213]
#4820963 - 10/18/05 02:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Come on, Alex. I'm sure you're intelligent enough...
Quote:
Alex213 said: Come on Red, does taking over an embassy in Iran really mean you are at war with America?
Redstorm, I believe your hypothesis has just been disproven.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Silversoul]
#4820974 - 10/18/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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i used to take over embassies all the time back in college.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Silversoul]
#4821003 - 10/18/05 02:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Redstorm, I believe your hypothesis has just been disproven.
Not you again
Still more interested in making pointless personal attacks rather than political points? It must be 18 months since I last had a discussion with you. Isn't it time you moved on?
I'll put you back on ignore to save wasting any time reading your irrelevant "grudge" posts.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Alex213]
#4821021 - 10/18/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is no grudge. There's nothing to move on from. I really don't care about you or what you do or think of me. I was addressing a comment which was so obviously ridiculous that I merely needed to quote it. Stop making such fallacious arguments and I will stop pointing out how ridiculous they are.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Alex213]
#4821313 - 10/18/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Come on Red, does taking over an embassy in Iran really mean you are at war with America?
Sounds like an act of war to me.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Redstorm]
#4821710 - 10/18/05 05:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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It most certainly is. What occured was that the Iranian government denied they were behind it, attributed the whole thing to youthful exuberence and refused to do anything about it, including prosecuting the students involved after the release. They also fed and supported them throughout the whole ordeal. Now one of the fuck widgets involved is president of the shithole. President at the time.....cuntrag Yimmy, who continues to bleat his appeasement bilge throughout the world. Stupid bitch sent two helicopters. Should have sent two carriers and two divisions. What a waste of protoplasm
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: zappaisgod]
#4821718 - 10/18/05 05:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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The carbon in Jimmy Carter's cells would be more useful as the lead in #3 pencils. (#2 pencils write too bold a line for his shit to be involved)
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: zappaisgod]
#4822030 - 10/18/05 06:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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feed the hungry, end injustice, free the enslaved, cure the sick, listen to the voiceless
and terrorism will sleep.
-------------------- Everything I post is fiction.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
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Where do you find these pictures?
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Los_Pepes
Stranger
Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
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Re: Knowing your enemy [Re: Moonshoe]
#4822372 - 10/18/05 07:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: feed the hungry, end injustice, free the enslaved, cure the sick, listen to the voiceless
and terrorism will sleep.
The only way to do this is to kill all Islamic terrorists and bring down all of the Islamic theocracies. H bombs and nerve gas would be the best way. I suggest we use them before the Islamic terrorists take over the whole world. If Islam takes over the world you will have to reincarnate into a world run by terrorist Islamic governments.
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