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 BataviaVakereli
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 274
Last seen: 14 years, 14 days
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 Inoculating woodchips with shiitake.   1
#4669870 - 09/16/05 01:17 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm sure it would be better to inoculate grain and then spawn to woodchips but could I possibly just inoculate straight woodchips and let them colonize and fruit? This is my first attempt at growing gourmet and I'm trying to do it in as few steps as possible.
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 poboy
On the bounce
Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 1,355
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. *DELETED* [Re: BataviaVakereli] 1
#4670071 - 09/16/05 01:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by poboyReason for deletion: d
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Burn the land and boil the sea but you can't take the sky from me.     
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S8N
PIMP
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 330
Loc: michigan
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: poboy]
#4676768 - 09/18/05 04:05 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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what happend to oak dowels??? my perception of pressure cooking is that it breaks a natural balance of fighting contaminations. i know grains are supposed to contaminate alot more than other spawns working with wood lovers in natural culture type settings. just my 2 cents slap me i dont even grow wood lovers yet!
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GourmetMushroom
Gourmet MushroomGrower
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 56
Loc: California USA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: BataviaVakereli]
#4708159 - 09/25/05 01:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Liquid cultures are the way to grow ALL edibles. It's fast, easy, and nearly fool-proof. From injection to an extremely dense live culture using a continuous stir on a plate takes about 7 days for Shiitake. When I say extremely dense, I mean you can only see 1.5 inches or so into the liquid.
Here is a 500ml live culture started with 8ml of live culture only 2.5 days old:
When this culture is done in about five more days, you won't be able to see the magnet (that's my personal test). Of course you could use it even now, but it's peak is about 5 more days.
17 days ago I used a finished Shiitake live culture to inject this 3-pound standard wood chip, saw dust, oat bran, block:
There was no grain involved in this and as you can see the block is heavily white and is already starting to show the starts of blistering in only 17 days! It'll be ready to remove from the bag in probably another two weeks, after I count 10 or so black mushroom blisters.
Edited by GourmetMushroom (09/25/05 01:38 AM)
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: GourmetMushroom]
#4710134 - 09/25/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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How much liquid inoculate did you put in there? Have you done this before...? seems like it.
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GourmetMushroom
Gourmet MushroomGrower
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 56
Loc: California USA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: BataviaVakereli]
#4710642 - 09/25/05 04:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, I've been using live cultures for some time. Live cultures might be new in relation to small-time hobbiests growing Psilocybes but have been used in edible growing for a long time. If you read Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms, they talk about it quite a bit. The only thing I think they got wrong is the stir rate. For a typical magnetic teflon stir bar stirring a quart Kerr jar with 500-700ml of live culture, you'd best stir at 300 to 600 RPM, not 100-200 like suggested in GGMM. I find that if you stir too slow like that, sometimes you'll get pretty big lumps before the culture reaches peak density. It's not big deal--hell you don't even NEED a stir plate at all if you don't mind lower concentration--but if you have the stir plate ($30-$40 on Ebay), why not stir fast enough to make it super dense?
I like to use the largest syringe at a reasonable price, which is a 140cc. Monoject sells a 140cc for about $5 through online Vet Supply vendors. It's supposedly a one-use disposable, but they can survive probably fifty to a hundred autoclaves in my experience for our purposes. Here it is through on of the online stores:
http://lambriarvet.com/products.php?item=01101MON-140LL
140ccs of LC is enough for a typical large spawn bag which, if full, holds about a gallon of substrate (the bag I pictured was a half block). If you mix well after you inject, the whole bag should show growth fast. Shiitake doesn't flush out real white overnight like some do, but it gets there. It takes about two weeks to go from brown, to gray-brown, to grey, to white.
I am making a few dozen Shiitake liquid cultures now. If you want one, PM me and we can work a trade ($10 or just another culture). I will not send or receive outside the USA, though, because customs might freak if they saw a live culture test tube. I don't want to deal with their ignorance and hassle.
Edited by GourmetMushroom (09/25/05 04:11 PM)
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: GourmetMushroom]
#4710811 - 09/25/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ive read GGMM cover to cover dozens of times... I'm familiar with making liquid cultures, but I've never heard of directly inoculating onto the substrate. The most common wisdom around these parts will tell you that there isn't a large enough nutrient base to support large fruitings.
I used 60CC syringes I bought thru Fungi Perfecti, thanks for the link those are cheaper and larger.
Oh and don't worry about U.S. customs. They don't care what leaves the country.
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GourmetMushroom
Gourmet MushroomGrower
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 56
Loc: California USA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: BataviaVakereli]
#4710892 - 09/25/05 05:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Supplementing the fruiting substrate with a small percentage of grain isn't a bad idea and would be the same nutritionally as using grain spawn, but it's not needed if you've supplemented the mix with some sort of bran too. In my latest blocks I just used the woodchip, sawdust, bran formula given in GGMM with the addition of the optional gypsum. It worked well.
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Owl
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: GourmetMushroom]
#4712950 - 09/26/05 04:52 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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IMO one of the big advantages of grain spawn is that the colonized kernels form nutritional platforms from which the mycelium can grow and colonize the substrate rapidly. I have had better and faster colonization using grain spawn compared to using a liquid culture. I guess, the most important reason for this is that I am a small scale hobby grower and do not have access to the proper equipment to make a well stirred liquid culture.
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GourmetMushroom
Gourmet MushroomGrower
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 56
Loc: California USA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: BataviaVakereli]
#4713741 - 09/26/05 11:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sure, grain spawn is great for commercial growers, but for the small-time hobbyist it can easily increase the chances of contamination enormously. Why? Because one must open the bag and expose the content to the outside air to pour in the grain, right? That is a large contamination risk if one doesn't have a flowhood or glove box, and I don't have either nor want them.
Never at any point in the entire process of using liquid culture do I expose my substrate or liquid culture to outside air directly. Once they've cooled a bit from the cooker, I seal the bags without ever allowing any air in them, hang them up with clamps, and allow them to self-inflate through the filter patch. After they've inflated and cooled, I inject the liquid culture and seal it immediately with hot glue. Liquid culture, if done as I do, nearly totally eliminates the risk of contamination. And as for my experience with them, if the liquid culture was at peak density, used liberally, and then well mixed throughout the bag, the speed of colonization and completion definitely matches or exceeds grain spawn's. And since you don't have to worry about contamination through exposure to the outside air, you can mix up that substrate from the beginning as nutrient rich as you want.
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Owl
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: GourmetMushroom]
#4718702 - 09/27/05 05:39 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I still think BataviaVakereli would be better of trying grain spawn. The right water content of the wood chips can be easily achieved by soaking them for 12 hours and draining them. If you use a liquid culture you have to take into account the extra moisture that you add during inoculation while you are preparing your substrate. Substrate that is too wet is very susceptible to contamination. If you use sawdust in your substrate this can be done more easily.
A glove box can be constructed easily and allows the use of agar cultures and grain spawn. I would be hesitant to call liquid cultures easy, and nearly fool-proof but in the end it only matters what works best for you.
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GourmetMushroom
Gourmet MushroomGrower
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 56
Loc: California USA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: Owl]
#4719195 - 09/27/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I can tell that no one here understands what I am doing real well since I didn't explain it well. I will be writing a tek covering how to do a bag culture where water content and such is not difficult to achieve since you introduce a good portion of vermiculite. You are so worried about contamination because you are used to using grain spawn where one always introduces contamination during the spawn pour into the bag and need to minimize the risk via a glove box. Using my tek, you will not need to worry about this stuff since you won't introduce any contamination in the first place as the bag is never exposed to outside air at any point.
Here's a picture I took this morning of a completed Shiitake live culture that I'll be using this morning to inoculate a few bags:
Edited by GourmetMushroom (09/27/05 10:09 AM)
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: GourmetMushroom]
#4719457 - 09/27/05 11:13 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Now what is the moisture content of the substrate? Because when i did the liquid to substrate i didnt get very good growth. But when i used grain spawn i had wonderful growth.
ahhh now i see petri dishes were blended up in an earlbach. Less contact points and fragments compared to the liquid culture!
I get what your saying.
Vets/ranchers have a vacination gun for livestock. I has a pump handel and adjustable dosages. It draws up the inoculant threw a tube. Sounds pretty useful to me.
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Owl
Stranger
Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: GourmetMushroom]
#4723573 - 09/28/05 12:57 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I am interested in your techniques and I'm looking forward to your tek.
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skycaptain
Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 22
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: Owl]
#15751723 - 02/02/12 01:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is interesting. I'd like to try this.
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john-hai
oyster lover
Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 285
Loc: san jose ca
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
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Re: Inoculating woodchips with shiitake. [Re: skycaptain]
#15751786 - 02/02/12 01:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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keep us posted on your grow.
john
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3 rules i use to grow mushroom
#1 local material
#2 recycle when possible
#3 make it simple
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