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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. * 3
    #28495425 - 10/07/23 12:18 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

People started talking about this in the Ukraine war thread, so I made this thread so we can have a place to talk about it without getting off topic in the other thread.



From what I've gathered, Hamas launched a coordinated multi-front attack on Israel in the morning of October 6, 2023.  The attack included over 2,000 rockets fired over the border, and at least thirteen trucks filled with Hamas militants armed with AR-style weapons.  The trucks seem to mostly be acting on their own, just driving around Israeli settlements and shooting civilians at random, and going door to door to kill people in their homes, take them hostage back to Gaza, or keep them hostage in their homes.

There appears to have been no resistance at all by Israel military to stop these trucks from crossing the border.  A total intelligence failure.  Perhaps they put their guard down because this weekend is a holiday weekend for Jews?

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has declared war.  Air strikes are already underway in Gaza and at least 200 have been killed there.

Post updates to this conflict here.



https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/sirens-israel-rocket-attack-gaza-intl-hnk/index.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/sirens-warn-of-rockets-launched-towards-israel-from-gaza-news-reports

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-says-palestinian-militants-are-infiltrating-gaza-rcna119315

Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (10/07/23 12:33 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 1
    #28495452 - 10/07/23 12:52 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

There appears to have been no resistance at all by Israel military to stop these trucks from crossing the border.






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OfflineMilleresque
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 3
    #28495491 - 10/07/23 01:24 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

This is a seriously complicated, painful, loaded subject to broach…and I’ve only had one sip of my morning coffee after the usual “fuck my life” pre dawn mantra.

And if you thought the Ukrainian thread attracted some moronic partisan opinions, well, stand back.

This is horrific and for me I have to look at actions like these as another prison riot. The violent and rebellious lashing out that comes from living in apartheid, occupied, funnelled, controlled, with your food and electricity under the control of your jailer.

It will accomplish nothing but an overly heavy response…as it always does. Israel’s government is not “the good guy”. Hamas is not “the good guy”. The Palestinian people have been living under a set of circumstances that are abysmal and illegal. This whole situation, for all people involved is simply awful and my heart breaks a little this morning, thinking  of people who are just like me, going through this. Israeli and Palestinian.

I don’t know how it happens but the occupation has to stop, otherwise this shit will continue. People don’t want to live in prison. They tend to get their backs up every now and again. I hope (knowing otherwise) that Israel can use some goddamn restraint and Hamas realises that this shit only invites worse shit, but I get it. It’s a howl of anger and pain.

Now there’ll be more howling, and bleeding, and death.


--------------------
“Develop an interest in life as you see it; in people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself.“

Henry Miller

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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Milleresque]
    #28495502 - 10/07/23 01:39 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Seriously I hope the people of Palestine will rise up against all these Hamas people doing terrorism stuff and hurting folks

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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 3
    #28495517 - 10/07/23 02:02 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

What is there to say? Decades of Israeli oppression has finally boiled over. Israel has responded with airstrikes, but these will mostly only be aimed at massacring civilians, per usual. Hamas' command structure is probably underground at this point. Thing is, the people of Gaza are used to this and willing to bear just about any cost. The Hamas operation is wildly popular amongst them.

The IDF looks like it will try a ground operation to occupy Gaza. Unfortunately, it looks like this will cause Hezbollah to get involved now too. There is video of soldiers heading to the border. Hezbollah is much more capable than Hamas.

This might turn into a serious regional war involving Lebanon.

The Israel project, as long as it pursued a policy of total aggression both towards its neighbors and towards the locals from whom it has stolen an entire country, was always unsustainable. And the US policy of holding Israel's hand as it did whatever it wanted, committed any crime it wanted, has failed miserably.

This is the natural result. Now we will face the consequences.

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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: chopstick] * 1
    #28495527 - 10/07/23 02:13 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Yes that's the radicalist slant used to try to justify these unbelievably atrocious acts of terror!

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 5
    #28495551 - 10/07/23 02:40 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Yes that's the radicalist slant used to try to justify these unbelievably atrocious acts of terror!




It’s weird how there’s no outrage at the atrocious acts of terror inflicted upon the Palestinian people every day.

Easy to moralize about the proper limitations of an oppressed people as you sit comfortably in the AC in a nation that hasn’t been attacked by a sovereign nation since their great grandfather was alive.



Palestinians are not given the options that the Western media urges them to use instead of violence. We are told to be more outraged at the Boycott, Divest, Sanction movement than by illegal settlements, assassinations of journalists, and just overall wanton violence against certain ethnic groups. Even the lapdog Human Rights Watch acknowledges the apartheid system at this point.

Anyone equivocating at this point is just a useful idiot. At the very best, they are advocating for a status quo which has resulted in horrific consequences for the occupied people.




As far as what this ‘Storm of Al Aqsa’ will accomplish for the Palestinian people, that remains unknown. Obviously there is Israeli retaliation happening, level entire apartment buildings in Gaza City, and cutting off electricity to the entire of Gaza (another war crime). But what would you have them do? They’ve been living in an open air prison for over 50 years, they’d rather fight than succumb to slow death.



By the way, Mossad created Hamas to undercut the popularity and reasonable-ness of Fatah and the PLO. So don’t think Israeli leaders are weeping over this recent attack. They’re absolutely stoked that they can once again easily demonize the Palestinian people, equate them with terrorism, and accelerate their plans for an Israel entirely ethnically cleansed of Palestinians.


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OfflineMilleresque
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 1
    #28495562 - 10/07/23 02:46 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I just don’t understand what Hamas thought these acts would achieve, other than political support for the Israeli prime minister, who is an abomination. I just don’t get it. Who stands to benefit? What was Hamas end goal here?

Again, who stands to benefit the most? How could Israeli intelligence services so apparently unaware that this was in the works?

I’ll say it: Israel has been riven by political protests for almost a whole year. Benjamin has lost a lot of political captial.

He’s now getting a lot of support. Interesting.


--------------------
“Develop an interest in life as you see it; in people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself.“

Henry Miller

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Milleresque]
    #28495598 - 10/07/23 03:17 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Ben is gonna get it now.

Nothing like a conflict to bring agreement between rival factors or  unpopular leadership. In today's day in age, any two bit government can string along an ambush like this. If Hamas thinks things are wrong now, just wait.

I could care less for either side as they both dip their wicks in this shit. If I was a betting man, the Palestinians are gonna be in a world of eating more shit sandwiches.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (10/07/23 03:21 PM)

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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28495625 - 10/07/23 04:21 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1710777004046336510

All resistance combat units throughout Syria and Lebanon were put on war alert by the issuance of an order from Seyyed Hassan Nasrallah.

The resistance is ready to start the final battle in a united front."

— Hezbollah


Shit is getting real. What a catastrophe for our world. An avoidable one too, if the Israelis had merely chosen to be respectful towards Palestine and their Arab neighbors instead of supporting ISIS and oppressing the Palestinians while believing themselves to be invincible and superior to everyone else.

Israel has been fucking around for decades, and now they're finally about to hit the "find out" stage. This has been a long time coming and it is extremely unfortunate that it all had to come to this.

Too bad this will come at a huge cost in human lives, with unpredictable consequences.

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #28495641 - 10/07/23 04:44 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

I haven't done a deep news dive yet, as I'm just not ready to wade through all the inevitable bullshit.

But I'm really struggling to understand how over a dozen trucks loaded with armed men were able to drive around in Israel, and randomly go from house to house killing people.

And I understand that a bunch of rocket attacks at once can overwhelm any defenses, but don't they also have all sorts of surveillance and aerial defense systems in place?

I'm not a big military technology buff, but I really thought the IDF was advanced enough to at least meet a threat like this head-on.

I normally hate conspiracy theories with a passion, but this just feels absurdly convenient. I'd honestly love to be proven wrong there.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #28495652 - 10/07/23 04:50 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

I've seen a couple claims of intelligence failures. Which is very possible.

Also, apparently IDF troops go home for the Sabbath? Hence, the intelligence failure was magnified, because due to religious custom the soldiers weren't even near their posts.

Thing about religious nuts killing other religious nuts, and religious nuts in general, is that they follow these weird-ass rituals for some reason, and those rituals rarely, if ever, make sense.

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28495660 - 10/07/23 04:58 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Yeah, that's a great point.

I guess, too, that both Hamas and the IDF are motivated to exaggerate the magnitude of the offensive. An odd case where Hamas wants to claim as many kidnappings and civilian casualties as possible, and the IDF is also interested in hyping this up to justify going HAM. As opposed to more symmetrical warfare, where the tendency is to downplay both your own casualties and the numher of civilians you killed, and do the opposite for your enemies.


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Beware of advice- even this.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Milleresque]
    #28495707 - 10/07/23 05:58 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Milleresque said:
I just don’t understand what Hamas thought these acts would achieve, other than political support for the Israeli prime minister, who is an abomination. I just don’t get it. Who stands to benefit? What was Hamas end goal here?

Again, who stands to benefit the most? How could Israeli intelligence services so apparently unaware that this was in the works?

I’ll say it: Israel has been riven by political protests for almost a whole year. Benjamin has lost a lot of political captial.

He’s now getting a lot of support. Interesting.




There have been reports that the joint effort was directed at the gulf state’s normalization of relations with Israel. But honestly, even if their goals were to random soldiers back to Israel in exchange for Palestinians being released from prison, it’s worth it.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28495914 - 10/07/23 09:20 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Meh, them coming to power in 1982 (Hezzzbollla) as a response to Israel's invasion of Beirut during Lebanon's civil war still smells butthurt. Without a doubt, they are stronger now, but mainly in antiquted conventional warfare.

I disagree that this will be worth it to Hamas and their mutual allies. Time will tell, but this isn't some tit for tat, let's just launch some old motars over the border shit and praise the martyrs. I think the response from Israel will be exponentially more damaging.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (10/07/23 09:22 PM)

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28496096 - 10/08/23 02:27 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Israel could and would take out Hamas in a couple days, if there were no other regional or world wide considerations, and obviously there are. The U.S. gives Israel a lot of slack, and the limits have not been fully tested but there are limits.

Iraq says they're joining the war against Israel, we'll see. Conflict between U.S. and Iraq has seemed inevitable, but the timing might be tricky with the American election cycle. Normally the U.S. right wing would be gung ho for this (saving Jerusalem etc.), but is American political unity possible now for any issue?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Milleresque] * 3
    #28496156 - 10/08/23 04:55 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Milleresque said:
I just don’t understand what Hamas thought these acts would achieve




I think the Palestinians have decided it’s worth going down swinging, they have nothing left to loose and have had enough of living in an outdoor jail, sanctioned to hell.
It’s a pity they didn’t target Netanyahu and other Israeli hardliners.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28496176 - 10/08/23 05:22 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Yeah, no disagreement with any of that.

I always thought Israel should give the Palestinians some land and  all this could have been avoided, but that was probably naive. There is some twisted conflict beyond the land issue.

Israel has sustained peace with Egypt and can negotiate rationally with Saudi Arabia but not with Palestine. They say civil wars are the worst.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineB Traven
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28496286 - 10/08/23 09:05 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Palestine never had a chance to be a truly independent country. Their entire existence has been similar to the Bantustans of South Africa.

Combine that with the Israeli state's policy of collective punishment, and the ability of people from around the world to move to Israel, claim citizenship, and immediately move into illegal settlements, and yeah. There's a brew of boredom, resentment, and rage that won't be easily dispelled.

Israel is an odd place. People move there every day, while a lot of locals see no future there and are trying to get the fuck out. Reminds me of Florida a little.


--------------------
Beware of advice- even this.

Edited by B Traven (10/08/23 09:06 AM)

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: B Traven] * 3
    #28496360 - 10/08/23 10:16 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

My limited information makes Palestine seem exactly like an open-air prison. As far as I can tell, the borders are closed in every direction, including non-Israeli directions, by Israel. All utilities are controlled by Israel, all infrastructure is controlled by Israel. Unemployment is >50%, and IDF forces routinely shoot into Palestine indiscriminately. And, of course, Israeli settlements routinely pop up (with associated massacres of the previous occupants).

Personally, I agree with the idea that it is human nature to seek to escape confinement.

I also think that when people run out of ways to redress their grievances peacefully, they will turn to violence.

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