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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Psilocybe semilanceata/ liberty cap & plant rhizomes - experimental
    #28255499 - 03/30/23 10:09 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I would do this myself but I do not have all the supplies, nor the current means. But to anyone interested, I have been interested in growing P. semilanceata but as you probably know this is not an easy task. I may be an amateur mycologist.

I have been researching how this may be possible, and I have only seen a handful of other people mentioned online who have successfully fruited this species.

I have a hypothesis that may not be exclusive to me but that I began thinking of on my own. I haven't seen this written anywhere either.

It is said that the mycelium feeds off the dead roots of the grasses in wetland areas and often in tufts of grass where the soil has had sheep, or other sh** in the soil.

There are a few observations I made researching this species in its natural environment. I'd love to be able to go find these some time in person, but nevertheless... this is all hypothetical anyway.

People always mention the sedges.

Notice these plants which grow around psilocybe semilanceata

Rhytidiadelphus squarrosus moss, grows horizontally

Deschampsia cespitosa


I am hypothesizing that the mycelium grows with the root system, and with the rhizomes that grow horizontally. During the winter the rhizomes die, and this not only provides food, but also shelter from the soil. I hypothesize that the mycelium grows inside of the hollowed out rhizomes

P. Sem in a line, growing with the rhizome under the soil

Reed sweet grass rhizome




Cyperus longus roots



These plants, I think, are crucial to these mushrooms

I also think there is something to potentially be aware of if one thought about trying to grow these.

Take a look at a map versus where these are found and the copper distribution and concentration of that area.


The copper concentration seems to go from high and then medium to low and with a few spots very low. These mushrooms seem to hang out where the copper concentration is going down but it still relatively high. I wonder if this has to do with them being able to survive in, and thus prefering by virtue of evolution, an environment where not many other fungal species can live.
To make it more interesting...

Psilocybe semilanceata mycelium has antimicrobial properties that prevent fungal root rot in these grasses. I think this is because the fungus needs these rhizome systems intact for it to grow. I don't think it is merely decomposing the roots of these plants, and nor do I think this is a case of parasitism.

I think the copper concentration in one's soil mix would need to be about in the yellow... I'm not sure but I think this may be part of why the mycelium would need the shelter of the inside of a rhizome in order to get a foothold, as copper is not particularly easy on fungi. I think there is indeed a symbiotic relationship going on, and perhaps even something like mycorrhizae, but I can't say for certain.

If one wanted to try to implement an indoor setup, one would want to have a soil/substrate mix, likely 1 - 1½ feet deep, in a three by three space where the temperature can be controlled. I would use a slightly acidic soil base setup with peat moss. I would also use horse manure or sheep dung if I could get it.
You would need a grow light and a clear, tall lid to place across the entire grow space. Think a really big monotub, but in a grow tent.
The soil would be inlaid with a proper concentration of copper, or perhaps one would want to do a test run dividing the space into two test groups, one with added copper and one without.
I think buying a grass rhizome online that is already dead could serve as a means of spreading the spores all on top of the soil mix.
Liquid spores syringes could be used to squirt all the spores onto the rhizomes, preferably inside the intact hollow ones.
These inoculated rhizomes would then be spread all over the top of the soil and then soil would be put on top of it to cover
Then the actual plants would be planted and allowed to grow.

In order to get it to fruit, I hypothesize you would need to constantly maintain this grow environment, allowing the moss to grow, the whatever sedges, like pond sedges, or Carex riparia, and the grasses like the deschampsia or sweet grass etc. Etc. My idea is as long as you can keep some of the grass dying and going into the soil, when you then drop the temperature, probably gradually and raise the humidity, you could likely get the entire chamber to fruit consistently.

I don't know what kind of maintenance this would take, but I would then similate a short winter with some sort of air conditioner unit hooked up to the grow tent where some of the vegetation can actually die and then after a couple weeks turn the heat back up again and just simulate mini season cycles, and I bet you could do this for quite some time.

Edited by Blue_Lux (03/31/23 10:22 AM)

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28255521 - 03/30/23 10:50 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Addendum :

1. You want to keep the humidity high when fruiting
2. You would have to have some artificial means of getting the grow space very cold, perhaps even in the low 40s, and I'm not sure how feasible that is but it is probably possible if you get a unit that can get the space really cold
3. You would want some sort of insulation likely to keep the environment cut off from whatever room environment, vapor pressure, etc
4. You would want a humidifier hooked up to run inside of the area, and you would need to clean it weekly or whatever


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28255526 - 03/30/23 10:56 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

There is another post with a similar idea about Psilocybe mushrooms and rhizomes, which can be found at the link below

-quote-
What I’m interested in, and haven’t seen much if any discussion about yet, is what role plant rhizomes, or plants with rhizomatic root systems etc, may potentially play in this process in nature, and if this in part explains why azurescens only appear to grow in the wild from the roots of dune grasses- particularly Ammophila arenaria (European beach grass).

In my own hunting for cyanescens I’ve found that they fruit very commonly in the presence of plants, and often invasive species/weeds that notoriously spread through rhizomes. (This also seems to be the case with, for example, ps. ovoideocystidiata, which are often found feeding from decaying Japanese knotweed- an infamously invasive species that can spread through rhizomes up to forty feet.) My first significant cyan find (pics at the bottom) was around the base of a sword fern, with a large number of fruits densely clumped together appearing to grow straight from the fern’s root system. I haven’t found this in any other patch, but throughout this whole area there were mushrooms at the base of a network of ferns in an area maybe 20 x 50 feet, mulched with shredded alder. This got me wondering if something about the ferns’ roots played a part in successful wild fruiting.



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27270941


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

Edited by Blue_Lux (03/30/23 10:59 PM)

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28256135 - 03/31/23 12:34 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I am doing something like this right now. I have a sedge plant currently in a tub serving as a kind of artificial wetland. To this I added a bit of spawn - I think I isolated the mushroom on agar. I am also trying to germinate grass in a bag with agar wedges to create grass infected with it, also.

Haven't checked it in a while for myc development as I've been on vacation. If there's anything to show I will post.

Quote:

2. You would have to have some artificial means of getting the grow space very cold, perhaps even in the low 40s, and I'm not sure how feasible that is but it is probably possible if you get a unit that can get the space really cold




Alternatively, one could grow outside, either in outdoor patches or in a tub exposed to the elements. It might be suitable either at their regular fruiting time or at the end of winter also. In some zones, the temperature remains good all winter.

Quote:


I would do this myself but I do not have all the supplies, 




Wouldn't all the supplies needed be a sedge plant or cyperus plant or jucnis plant, and spores?

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Offlineohkw
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28256476 - 03/31/23 03:58 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

wasn't P.semilanceata already successfully cultivated on sterile media by one or the other member of this message board?

I recently showed, that living grass roots are definitely not mandatory for the cultivation of Marasmius oreades, which also inhabits grassy areas. Also Macrolepiota procera was successuflly cultivated that way.
Of course this does not rule out that either of these species may somehow profit from living grass rhizomes. Still, ragarding your hypothesis, what makes me doubt it is that especially the rhizome is not what dies during winter. I consider it more likely that P. semilanceata feeds primarily on dead plant matter, either pre-decomposed or not. What may make it more difficult to cultivate than other mushroom species may just be a dependency on microbiome metabolties which are opportunistically taken up.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28256508 - 03/31/23 04:27 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I'd rather try this indoors, and I don't have a good place for it right now.

And that is very interesting. I'd like to know how  it turns out. As well, I've also heard yes you're right some sort of perhaps wetland simulation would work! :super:

I am really interested to find out how this goes for you.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: ohkw]
    #28256514 - 03/31/23 04:30 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Interesting. Yes... psilocybe semilanceata has been grown... but not consistently or in any manner that produces many of them. This is why I suspect the rhizomes have something to do with it. And yes you are right I overlooked that. The rhizome is not what is going to die during the winter... but would eventually die in certain places, creating hollow shoots. I was speculating about this may occur. Thank you for the information


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28256530 - 03/31/23 04:43 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I think you need an established system beneath the soil from grass, moss, sedges, etc. I think this is the only way the mycelium is going to naturally form in the soil. And I think you could do this if you could simulate seasons. Outdoors this would take at least a year.
If the system is going to produce naturally then it most likely needs the microorganisms and movements of rhizomes and etc. I have even read that psilocybe semilanceata primordia are stimulated by microorganisms in the soil, if I am not mistaken. I cannot remember where I read this, but I mean great luck to you and your experiment. I'd love to see pictures of it. I'm not sure but I think the mycelium grows in hollowed out plant material, and then subsequently grows, once established in the area, from the sheep dung or horse dung and also the grass that gets cut back and dies.

I don't know. I'd like to see this mushroom dug up to see exactly how the mycelium is growing underground with the roots of these plants.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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Offlineluteofolius 2.0
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Blue_Lux] * 1
    #28256741 - 03/31/23 07:11 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Hey man I really don't think it's that complicated at all.  It's actually been done before, and by that I mean folks have grown liberty caps before.   

Obviously you wanna start from spore, use water agar if your really finicky, but I've done pretty good one regular lme agar germinating fungal spores.    I just like to use water agar for wild cultures because they generally are dirty and the lack of nutrients allows you to catch the mycelium of your preferred species instead of contam.   

Then the recommend grain is generally rye grass seed, same that you'd use for tampanesis or other sclerotia producing species. 

After that you can case them and it's actually been done before, people have fruited them indoors. 

If you'd like my mycological opinion, it would be better to use your grainspawn outdoors in an outdoor grow.  Make a bed similar to what you'd do for woodlovera but instead of materials such as woodchips I'd recommend using a nitrogen rich soil and after you thoroughly mix your spawn id case it with more raw rye grass seed so it grows in and you have a humid environment for fruiting. 


There's posts about this very topix at least the cultivation of P.semilanceata, already on the shroomery.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: luteofolius 2.0]
    #28256749 - 03/31/23 07:21 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I'm going to have to find that on shroomery. What I had in mind was something like a monotub because some people prefer doing things in smaller, controlled spaces.
Thanks for your information I really appreciate it.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Blue_Lux] * 1
    #28256955 - 03/31/23 11:43 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Blue_Lux said:
I'm going to have to find that on shroomery. What I had in mind was something like a monotub because some people prefer doing things in smaller, controlled spaces.
Thanks for your information I really appreciate it.




It's not a bad idea. You can just use the tub in that case as a bottomless plant pot for your specially-inoculated plants.

I checked my semi tub - I have pretty even colonization over soil in my tub - I'll post a pic tomorrow (bad light now), but the sedge plant is alive despite basically rooting in almost pure mycelium. I'm going to case it with soil, add some extra grass I germinated along with the mycelium and an additional rush plant. Then pop off the lid. The cold season is ending here but temps are still ok for a few more weeks so I'm going to see if I can get something this season (I started the project about six months ago).

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Invisiblemyc_ousin_vinny
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28257763 - 04/01/23 02:51 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

There is an entire thread in the cultivation forum dedicated to growing these.


--------------------
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Let's stay focused on what works consistently.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: myc_ousin_vinny]
    #28258414 - 04/01/23 10:24 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Can you link it for me please


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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InvisibleBaba Yaga
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28258633 - 04/02/23 05:07 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

See link in my signature.

Trying a few monotubs indoors this year and a few pots outdoors. My first ever try with an outdoor bed was very successful. Having problems with mold at the moment. Just hoping to get some clone material this year and then go all in and will be diligent with the culture work for the next round.

Edited by Baba Yaga (04/02/23 05:23 AM)

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Offlineluteofolius 2.0
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Baba Yaga]
    #28258822 - 04/02/23 08:41 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Yeah I was hoping the og himself would comment on this thread, yo baba would u wanna help me out and pm me.  I have only one print left of p.semilanceata and I don't think it's viable at this time.  I could use some fresh genetics for my library and I got some trades if your interested.    Although u prolly got what I got.  Maybe not tho.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Baba Yaga] * 1
    #28259101 - 04/02/23 12:08 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

do you happen to play runescape? your picture is absolutely ridiculous btw :lol::rofl::dielaughing::weirdeyes:


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

Edited by Blue_Lux (04/02/23 12:09 PM)

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: P. Semilanceata / Liberty Cap potential method for growing [Re: Baba Yaga]
    #28259107 - 04/02/23 12:11 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

And thanks, I'm going to favorite both of those actually


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
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Re: Psilocybe semilanceata/ liberty cap & plant rhizomes - experimental [Re: Blue_Lux] * 1
    #28287256 - 04/20/23 07:22 PM (1 year, 29 days ago)

Paul Stamets discussing 8 days ago posted Psilocybe semilanceata and grass rhizomes, and he also mentions a pseudo mycorrhizaal relationship, which is exactly what I had thought! Awesome! He says this at 24minutes and 40 seconds into the video
24:40



--------------------
I the music, not the bling
the Dutch gay purge & pogrom
𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
            mēns super rēs
                  the truth of the Kykeon

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OfflineNooddy
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Re: Psilocybe semilanceata/ liberty cap & plant rhizomes - experimental [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28627621 - 01/19/24 06:32 PM (3 months, 27 days ago)

I have absolutely nothing of real knowledge on this.

But i asked gpt. And it sugested: "Some grasses may contain alkaloids like gramine and hordenine, but it's crucial to note that the presence and concentration of alkaloids can differ between plant species and even within different parts of the same plant."

Gramine is very close to the magicness, is it possible that the shrooms just leach some alkaloids from grass roots and furter dicompose them or some sort?


I may look like a fool rn, but take a gamble.

I do mean, no real knowledge. This could also be fake news from gpt.

Edited by Nooddy (01/19/24 06:34 PM)

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OfflineNooddy
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Re: Psilocybe semilanceata/ liberty cap & plant rhizomes - experimental [Re: Nooddy] * 1
    #28628053 - 01/20/24 02:12 AM (3 months, 26 days ago)

I would like some opinions though, everywhere states that they build it themself.

But is there just randomly a really similar compound in the grass roots around where libs grow?




Theoretically, what would the libberty enzymes do to gramine and hordenine?

Grass gets stressed, release alkaloids, grass enzymes slow down in late summer and the lib enzymes starts to speed up consuming the alkaloids from the grass?

"Epichloë is a genus of ascomycete fungi forming an endophytic symbiosis with grasses." Maybe libs work the same way?

Now im really intrested in shocking this grass, adding spores or gramine to a field.



Seen people selling kilos of gramine, any restrictions on this?

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