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All We Perceive
Sea Cucumber
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 10,491
Last seen: 9 months, 2 days
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best floor standing speakers
#23719086 - 10/08/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm going to start saving for a pair of floor standing speakers. I play many genres from classical to metal to electronic to rap so something versatile would be ideal. Budget is $3,000 for the pair. I'm really looking for something I will never have to upgrade for the rest of my life and something that will last a lifetime. Ideas? I've heard B&W makes the best stuff at this price range but I'm open to any manufacturer.
-------------------- "plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak
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falsereality
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 4,112
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Mirage speakers are excellent and cost less than 3k.
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phio
Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: falsereality]
#23719184 - 10/08/16 11:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Martin Logan Motion 40's. Head to a local Magnolia room, come with your music, spend a couple of weekends... 45min-1hour each time doing Initially a price-blind listening test to the available floor standing units in ascending quality order... Then, for your remaining visits compare your top 2 or 3 picks.
You will likely peak out with the Martin Logans and B&Ws. The Martin Logans will have a signature sound to them, beautiful soundstage, presence, deep and warm midrange that will likely be the sweet spot. B&W's will sound sharp and detailed but they felt too sterile and cold to me.
I listen to just about every genre of music there is. Tool Salival on a pair of Motions will transport you.
So, in that price range, things you should be looking for is : > Sound-stage (What is the spatial quality of the speakers? If you closed your eyes, does it seem as though you can point to specific places in the room where instruments are being played?) > Feelings (Does the sound production of the speakers evoke deep feelings? Does it put a smile on your face? Not a gimmicky smile but a deep resonant one?) > Detail (Are the specific frequency ranges detailed and separable?) > Volume (Is the overall performance just as amazing high as low? Slowly cranking the volume to -3dB do you break or do the speakers?)
> Float/Spill (Do the various frequency ranges float on top of each other and spill out into the room)?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1594762-martinlogan-motion-owners-thread.html
For the upper frequencies, this is what's performing the magic :
I have yet to hear any cone tweeter produce the stage, depth, detail, and clarity that these produce. The bass from the motions will shock you. You'll swear there is a subwoofer on in the room. It doesn't distort. It hits wide and deep... You'll be searching for the source for years.
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SpiritShroom
Orca
Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 325
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: phio]
#23719373 - 10/08/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Different brands allll produce different quality/sound/listening experience. One might be more mid range geared (while still being phenomenal) and then you have brands like Klipsch who are known for their american made speakers, with their ultra crisp highs and horn tweeters.
Personally id go with klipsch but im a huge fan of their stuff.
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
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Keep in mind that for 3k speakers, it's likely you'll need to put in more than that for amplification. Just my opinion, but most spend much more on amplification than the speakers. I have cheaper polks (I think about 1k), but I power them with a sunfire TGA 7401, which is like a 5k amplifier.
In that range, a receiver simply won't do and you'll be looking at separates.
Many of brands mentioned are solid: B&W, klipsch, polk, usher, Martin logan.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
badchad said: Keep in mind that for 3k speakers, it's likely you'll need to put in more than that for amplification. Just my opinion, but most spend much more on amplification than the speakers. I have cheaper polks (I think about 1k), but I power them with a sunfire TGA 7401, which is like a 5k amplifier
Spending 3k on passive speakers would be insane if you ask me, there are plenty of good active speakers out there.
Depending on what OP wants active might be more convenient
.Quote:
All We Perceive said: I'm going to start saving for a pair of floor standing speakers. I play many genres from classical to metal to electronic to rap so something versatile would be ideal. Budget is $3,000 for the pair. I'm really looking for something I will never have to upgrade for the rest of my life and something that will last a lifetime. Ideas? I've heard B&W makes the best stuff at this price range but I'm open to any manufacturer.
How are you planning on using them? Just for home listening? How loud are you looking for? I got 2 cheaper alto 800 watt actives for 300$ a piece and a cheap mixer to use them with. Works great for listening to music at low to high volumes, I actually live next to 3 apartment complexes so I almost never crank them much, the mixer lets me use them for my own musical needs as well. Right now I have 2 mics and a guitar/bass amp hooked up.
With 3k I would go for a nicer brand most likely but the Alto's are great for the price
Personally I would probably spend like 1k on a nice pair and put the rest towards other stuff.
-------------------- Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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Repertoire89
Cat
Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,122
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Make sure you get an amp which has at least 30% more power than your speakers maximum output
Otherwise your speakers won't be running properly, they might still sound good underpowered, but you're better off with cheaper speakers and an amp which can provide headroom (excess power).
The same goes for high end headphones, they need amplification.
Its worth putting thought into what's playing your music as well, whether that means going vinyl, buying a higher quality CD player, or upgrading your soundcard.
Basically there's a balance between the 3: stereo / amp / speakers
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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If you can get ahold of them, Quad Electrostatic speakers. How big is your room? They work best in a large auditorium.
They might be a bit out of your budget but if you get them, you'll never want for another pair of speakers ever again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_Electrostatic_Loudspeaker
Don't be fooled by the age, apart from different materials and some better understanding of acoustics (which is an artform, that's why not everyone can make a truly beautiful sounding musical instrument) voice coil technology is early 20th century and with the rare exception of Ionophone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_speaker), has never been surpassed.
What amplifier & phono stage (if any) preamp are you using, and what inputs into the amp?
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Quote:
musiclover420 said: Spending 3k on passive speakers would be insane if you ask me, there are plenty of good active speakers out there.
Whilst it's possible to fit a poweramp into a speaker cabinet, and my subwoofer is an active unit that uses a variable pass filter to intercept any LFO, the reason you wouldn't want to do it in speakers is any EMF loads will induce distortion and hum into the woofers and tweeters. When I was a teenager I had a very cheap and nasty sound system, the amplifier would pick up shortwave radio now and then. I gave that system to a friend and warned him about it, he didn't believe me until he had it on at 2am and said some Russian station woke him up lol. You can make fancy faraday cakes but it's easier to just have the amplification in a seperate box. It's more convienient to, any Hi-Fi system will have an amp with ins and outs which can be kept a good distance away from the speakers.
Passive speakers has the advantage as well of being easily upgradable. In the future, you may trade up for a better amplifier. The technology is easily adaptable as well, at work we have ancient speakers that used to be connected to a quad 303 amplifier from the 1950's, which unfortunately is not working anymore, so in the interim, we've got an early 1980's era rotel amp, similar to the one I used to have (I now have a NAD series 20 which has the phono and din sockets sticking up, rather than sticking back like most amps, makes reaching over to swap out leads very easy)
My family have been in the hifi industry for nearly 40 years now, and I work in a company that restores turntables as well as make record cleaner machines. I go to hifi shows and I've seen a lot of money change hands since I was a kid over these systems. There is so much bollocks in the industry that's catered to make really rich guys feel good with their fancy jeweler. I admire some of the people in the industry, charging £14,000 for a very shiny cable and he has a very nice house and car to show for it. Point is, I've listened to some of the best systems in the world and above a certain amount, you're entering the world of rapid diminishing returns.
FWIW I don't have fancy speaker cables, I use cheap multithreaded mains core, like you'd find in a drill or heatgun.
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Repertoire89
Cat
Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,122
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I'm not that involved in the HIFI scene, but agree that there is a point where you're just blowing money.
Especially with fancy cables I've noticed a difference between cables, when changing out shitty subpar cables for decent quality / durable cables, but $500 cables?
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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I am not saying passives aren't nice, they both have pros and cons. I am just saying 3k for just passive speakers is ludicrous unless you are loaded...
Quote:
When I was a teenager I had a very cheap and nasty sound system, the amplifier would pick up shortwave radio now and then. I gave that system to a friend and warned him about it, he didn't believe me until he had it on at 2am and said some Russian station woke him up lol.
I have never had this issue with my active Altos, not saying it isn't possible but for under 1k they get very loud, sound fine, and have been durable.
I would like a passive speaker set up at some point but like I said actives are just more convenient in some cases. For me it is mainly space/ money.
-------------------- Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: Repertoire89]
#23720192 - 10/08/16 05:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said: I'm not that involved in the HIFI scene, but agree that there is a point where you're just blowing money.
Especially with fancy cables I've noticed a difference between cables, when changing out shitty subpar cables for decent quality / durable cables, but $500 cables?
http://www.artaudio.co.uk/?page_id=309
Now, this chap is a friend of my father's and he's a nice guy, so I'm not criticising him, but, these are the £14,000 cables I was on about.
http://www.artaudio.co.uk/?page_id=199
That's very similar to the turntable I inherited from my late uncle, a soundek II, belt driven, very heavy platter, who's inertia smooths out any wobbles in the sound.
http://garrard501.com/garrard501.html Maybe one of these days I'll win the lottery, and on that day I'll get one of these turntables. And then the quad electrostats, and a decent fucking amplifier. I mean, my one is good, but the volume knob, the rheostat is damaged and bits are missing. Not a problem with my PC input as the sound card has very low distortion so I can use software volume slider in windows. But, if I did have a turntable plugged into it, I wouldn't be able to have it quiet.
As for decent budget speakers, go with Royd Minstrel if you can get them http://www.roydaudio.org/models/minstrel It's the weekend mind you, but come Monday I'll ask about the new Royd speakers I've seen with the ribbon tweeters, it's made by a new chap but I was very impressed with how they sound, and the cabinets are better made.
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Repertoire89
Cat
Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,122
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If I were a millionaire, its unlikely I would spend more than 10k on a sound setup (speakers + amp)
At that point you're already pretty close to live sound, the bigger issues imo are going to be the quality of recordings and how one acquired the recording. Most of the music I listen to was recorded at least 50 years ago, some of it is only accessible through very shoddy bootlegs uploaded at like 60kbs on archives.
I'd probably spend the extra money buying rights to the original recordings and distributing them at reasonable quality, or paying someone's conservatory tuition.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: Repertoire89] 1
#23720329 - 10/08/16 06:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Last year, around about the same time as back to the future day, I went to Gloucester and I just so happened to get in during choral evensong. The cathedral was closed to the public but I spoke with the usher saying I just wanted to stand close to hear it. He ushered me in and I sat on a pew and listened to the organ. It was amazing. I mean, it's hard to describe unless you've experienced it for yourself, and no matter how good your hifi is, you won't be able to recreate that feeling, the sound will probably have a reasonable facsimile.
I got chatting to a bloke about psychoacoustics (I then find out he's got a doctorate in psychoacoustics) and he explained to me what I was feeling in that cathedral was subharmonics. Imagine ripples in a pond, you can see them, each time they get reflected they get less and less, until there's no ripples, but if you look at the edge, you might see the waterline rise and fall. Sound does the same, it bounces off of the very cleverly arranged stonework inside the cathedral, until it becomes inaudible, but it's still felt in the chest cavity and if you've never had a chance to hear a proper organ in a big enclosed space it's a trip I can tell you now.
Of course, the best investment in any sound system is some good weed :3
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Repertoire89
Cat
Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,122
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Yeah man, cathedrals, opera theaters and classical auditoriums are made very carefully to enhance the sound. Its weird when you go to see an orchestra, the seating prices are based on acoustics, so that changes based on the venue and you may find seats in the back are worth more than front row seats.
Weed is good, but nothing can replace ear training / understanding.
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Masked
The Nutter
Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8,979
Loc: Canada
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Sound is SO subjective.
I have been a HIFI home theatre/speaker fanatic since i was 10. Its a passion passed on by my father.
I have owned many many brands and models of speakers over the years. And i have heard almost every speaker mentioned in this thread.
I alsl was an active member on various hi fi forum boards. Avsforums has a lot of knowledge but is by far the most pretentious.
All this being said, I've come to a realization just how subjective sound is. And what matters is that you find a speaker that suits your ear. At that point, the only thing to really research is the products durability/reliability.
I personally recommend looking into the online direct companies. They cut out the middleman. There are MANY great options.
But my most favourite speaker I have ever heard are these:
www.axiomaudio.com
The LFR1100's are pure fucking magic with the right amplification.
But for your budget, I highly recommend the axiom m100's. They are work horses. And the design philosophy is neutral speaker response. Meaning they arent coloured. They pick up every nuance and on the flip side, any mistake in mastering or the recording. They make you hear magic you couldn't hear before on well produced albums while letting you hear flaws in not so well produced albums. I love it. I have rediscovered my music collection because of how amazing they are.
Someone mentioned amplification. Very important to have headroom. You don't need as much as people think depending how loud you want to listen and the distance of your listening position.
Look at a speaker's input sensitivity rating. Most nowadays are arounf 85db or more. What that means is that it takes only 1 watt of power to hit 85db.
Learn more about it here:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/power
But i dont recommend their subs. They are fantastic but overpriced.
The best subwoofer for the money is
www.powersoundaudio.com
Some of the best hifi power amplifiers are:
www.emotiva.com
But a lot of people are using pro audio power amps because dollar per watt, are much cheaper. Only thing to watch out there is a hiss or hum.
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Edited by Masked (10/08/16 07:26 PM)
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Repertoire89
Cat
Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,122
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: Masked]
#23720457 - 10/08/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Interesting article, although it primarily touches on volume, I've always thought of headroom as giving your speakers room to stretch out regardless of volume, rather than increasing their maximum output.
But like you said, that depends on how loud you listen to music, and I'm not a terribly loud person.
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Masked
The Nutter
Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8,979
Loc: Canada
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: Repertoire89]
#23720472 - 10/08/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Headroom is the ability for the speaker to call on the amplifier for more only when it needs it....and it only needs it when more volume comes into play
Thats why "buy-wiring" is a joke.
There is sooo much hog wash in the hifi avs world.
If you have a 100 watt channel going to your tweeter and a 100 watt channel going to the subs in a tower speaker...it does not mean you are sending 200 watts to that speaker.
When you increase the volume and call for 10 more watts, generally the sub calls for the majority of that, thats all its going to take from the amp. Regardless of any "buy" wiring configuration.
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Repertoire89
Cat
Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 22,122
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: Masked]
#23720484 - 10/08/16 07:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Interesting, I need to hit the books on this again.
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Masked
The Nutter
Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8,979
Loc: Canada
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Re: best floor standing speakers [Re: Repertoire89]
#23720527 - 10/08/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I became so obsessed with this stuff for many years and i find the science of sound fascinating
Id really delve into that power article i posted. They have incredible credentials. They were heavily involved with the ottawa acoustic research council.
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/solutions/facilities/reverberant_acoustic_chamber.html
And their speaker design philosophy mirrors their experience.
Many canadian brand speakers do in fact. The design philosophy for neutral response.
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