Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Cubensis Lifecycle Questions * 2
    #23675503 - 09/24/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

hello friends, i have been ruminating on some things lately and wanted to see if any of yall could drop some knowledge on me :smile:

so, in our projects the standard lifespan of a fruiting colony is just 1-4 flushes, then we usually dispose/compost the substrate. Im curious about how things work in nature, and have been able to find next to no info on these questions so far. any info would be much appreciated!

a few quotes to set the stage:
Quote:

As with all long-lived plant and fungal species, no individual part of a clonal colony is alive (in the sense of active metabolism) for more than a very small fraction of the life of the entire colony. Some clonal colonies may be fully connected via their root systems, while most are not actually interconnected, but are genetically identical clones which populated an area through vegetative reproduction. Ages for clonal colonies, often based on current growth rates, are estimates.

"Humongous Fungus", an individual of the fungal species Armillaria solidipes in the Malheur National Forest, is thought to be between 2,000 and 8,500 years old.[33][34] It is thought to be the world's largest organism by area, at 2,384 acres (965 hectares).





1. what is the lifespan of a wild cubensis colony? is there a limit to the number of fruiting cycles a culture can sustain, beyond the restrictions placed on it by nutrition and environmental conditions? also, are there different phases in the lifecycle, beyond the basic reproductive cycle, where it has different potential characteristics and behavior? (possibly analogous to human infancy, adolescence, reproductive prime, old age, etc, and the way we can reproduce in some phases but not others, and are more susceptible to illness in some phases than others) 

2. in an "individual" such as "Humongous Fungus" or a wild cubensis colony, would the colony be likely to consist of numerous strains (like a MS grow)? or is it an individual strain, like a monoculture? i would suspect numerous strains to be present, but what i read is often confusing.

3. when a fruit is cloned, and multiple tissue samples are taken from different parts of the fruit, is the exact same variety of strains going to be present in each cultured sample? in my agar work, doing 6 plates of the same cloned fruit, i often see huge differences in the appearance and behavior of the myc. Is this the same collection of strains, expressing different characteristics? or are there a different cast of strains present in various clone cultures from the same fruit?

4. from year to year, if someone harvests cubes from the same place, it is likely from the same colony right? or overlapping, or subsequent colonies? if a wild colony is hundreds or thousands of years old, are there any effects of senescence or any other relevant phenomenon we could readily observe? does age affect wild cubensis colonies?

5. in MS grows, various colonies unite and consolidate somewhat, to network nutrients etc.. does this happen in the wild?

6. in an MS grow, are the same cast of strains present in all parts of the culture/substrate? or is the distribution less homogeneous?

7. in a clone culture, where the first plate shows several clear sectors, wouldnt a true clone culture continue to have all strains present in subsequent plates? how could one do this, since we nececarrily have to pick something to transfer, and cant pick all at the same time?


8. is there any indication that different strains within a colony might serve different functions/purposes within the colony? since some strains individually might not be able to fruit,  but could as part of a colony, are there other functions that might be distributed across different strains within the colony?

9. ultimately, in the beginning of an MS inoculation, monokaryons from spores meet up and become dikaryotic (forming a strain). but rather than having a million tiny colonies separated by the interface between them, we usually see a single, somewhat organized colony. So obviously at some point early in the process, the smaller MS colonies join together and build a network. but this doesnt really seem to happen if you put two established MS cultures together on a plate, since each colony remains distinct. is there some kind of phase, akin to adolescence or infancy, where the hyphae making up a colony are receptive to collaborating/consolidating/joining up with other colonies? 

10. also, since cleaning up clones involves picking a sector and transferring it, wouldnt that necessarily limit the number of strains present, and thus not be representative of all the strains initially present in the clone culture, much less the fruit?

11. i guess that brings up another thought: since we see monocultures express different characteristics as we manipulate variables, is it possible that what we see as multiple sectors could sometimes be the same strain group, just expressing different physical charactaristics? ive long suspected multiple sectors within the same culture to be the same group of strains, only growing in a different direction. but this carries that even further, if the same group of strains could express different phenotypes within the same culture. if so, i would love to identify the variable that would cause a sector made up of the same cast of strains as another to differentiate itself within the same dish

might be stupid questions, but i appreciate any light yall could shed on them. thanks in advance!!

warm regards


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Edited by c10h12n2o (03/29/17 09:34 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o] * 3
    #23675518 - 09/24/16 11:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

1. The mushrooms sporulate onto nearby plants which the cows eat. Its all ms in the wild. The cycle continues. . .

The rest is stuff we humans came up with to produce the mushrooms in greater abundance than nature could. No way nature can grow mushrooms better than me

:drunkdriver2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23675541 - 09/24/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

right right, just wondering about some of the specifics and big-picture stuff

does that entire cycle happen every single season? as in spores on plants are eaten by cows, then new cultures start in their manure; how long do you think it takes for that new culture to become established enough to fruit?

a tiny little culture wouldnt take as long as a large one of course. in our projects, the substrate being completely colonized is one of the most important factors for fruiting. but obviously this is a very different dynamic in the wild, since it has no set amount of pasteurized substrate to colonize. any insights on how this dynamic plays out in nature?

obviously it would depend on lots of variables, but in general, how many months/years do you think it takes for these spores to become a new fruiting colony? and how many years/hundred years would it take for a culture to die of old age, or show signs of senescence, or be out competed because of substantial lost vigor? can a wild cube colony remain productive for hundreds/thousands of years?

in our projects we have condensed this lifecycle down into a month or 2, but fungal colonies in the wild survive long periods of time. Have we artificially condensed a process that usually takes several years down into a few months?


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Edited by c10h12n2o (09/24/16 11:34 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23675546 - 09/24/16 11:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Shit man those r good questions. But I have little experience with wilds in the wilds . So I shall defer to those with b detter experience than mine.

:popcorn:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKenInVic
Hey Bulldog
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/01/16
Posts: 1,452
Loc: 3rd Stone from the Sun Flag
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23675571 - 09/24/16 11:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
No way nature can grow mushrooms better than me




Who's a good cultivator?  You are!  Yes you are, yes you are! :smirk:


--------------------
***My SGFC***  ***ID Mushrooms Here***
Pondering the question, "Are we all here, because we're not all there?"
       

"Because something is happening here, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones."  Ballad of a Thin Man by Mrs. Zimmerman's little boy, Bobby.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineberserkbadger
Mr Myc Tyson


Registered: 01/02/15
Posts: 122
Last seen: 5 months, 18 days
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: KenInVic] * 1
    #23675728 - 09/25/16 01:55 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The world is almost covered in mycelium :smile: its how the trees get so big, it's why your veg rots in your fridge, champagne has its fizz and why we have antibiotics. Fungi outnumber plant species 10 to 1 and they are also some of the largest single living things on earth. I'm talking 2 miles big...

Imagine just how many spores are in the air?? We breathe that stuff all time, there are so many spores that all the scenarios you mentioned are happening at the same time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemrmazdarx9
Pffffttt


Registered: 05/15/16
Posts: 9,796
Loc: behind you
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: berserkbadger] * 2
    #23675923 - 09/25/16 06:22 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

berserkbadger said:
The world is almost covered in mycelium :smile: its how the trees get so big, it's why your veg rots in your fridge, champagne has its fizz and why we have antibiotics. Fungi outnumber plant species 10 to 1 and they are also some of the largest single living things on earth. I'm talking 2 miles big...

Imagine just how many spores are in the air?? We breathe that stuff all time, there are so many spores that all the scenarios you mentioned are happening at the same time.





--------------------
COCA GROWERS come here and share your knowledge
COCA GROWERS UNITE
:penis:Click here for UK trades:penis:
:penis: need some supplies in the UK check Here or PM me:penis:
UK OTD uk members chat
UK supplies and trade OTD place to chat shit
Right Here
If you use "SWIM" you should DROWN

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinespore-ty
Male


Registered: 01/21/16
Posts: 1,028
Loc: In the bush
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: berserkbadger]
    #23675983 - 09/25/16 07:19 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

berserkbadger said:
The world is almost covered in mycelium :smile: its how the trees get so big, it's why your veg rots in your fridge, champagne has its fizz and why we have antibiotics. Fungi outnumber plant species 10 to 1 and they are also some of the largest single living things on earth. I'm talking 2 miles big...

Imagine just how many spores are in the air?? We breathe that stuff all time, there are so many spores that all the scenarios you mentioned are happening at the same time.






Im really diggin this thread :fonda:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleamidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: spore-ty]
    #23676075 - 09/25/16 08:33 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


--------------------
The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledankington
The Stranger
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o] * 1
    #23676137 - 09/25/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
in our projects we have condensed this lifecycle down into a month or 2, but fungal colonies in the wild survive long periods of time. Have we artificially condensed a process that usually takes several years down into a few months?




I believe this to be the case. In the very least, several months-a year or so becomes a couple of months.

This is partly conjecture, but…
If you spawn outdoor species (I'm mostly talking woodlovers), they'll take their sweet time getting ready to go, often up to a year. A spent sub might pop a couple loads off, but it's often much later than it would have in one of our tubs. And that's with our help. In the wild, it often seems like the fruit will often grow towards the edges of the mycelium in an effort to expand their network further (like faery rings). But, by adding younger mycelium to the network, you can get your outdoor patches to be fuller through and through.

I know cubes are different, as I don't see them propagating the same way. They AFAIK seem to propagate mostly by germinating in digestive tracts. So I know their cycle to be shorter, but they also don't seem to go for a larger network like say, the giant Amarilla colony in oregon. A cow poop is only so big, after all.

Because of this cycle of the cubensis, they will never see senescence in the wild, as it's MS every time. In fact, I'm not so sure senescence happens in the wild, merely because of the way it all works.

Where the fuck is Adden? He'd have better info on this for sure. I'll post a link in his journal :lol:

Some good stuff here to think about. Thanks for posting :smile:

Edited by dankington (09/25/16 09:20 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: dankington]
    #23680014 - 09/26/16 02:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
The rest is stuff we humans came up with to produce the mushrooms in greater abundance than nature could. No way nature can grow mushrooms better than me




it made us laugh, but pasty makes what is actually a REALLY relevant point to these questions

i think we often forget or take for granted (i know i do) how radically different what we are doing is from what actually occurs in nature, and how the species evolved to survive and reproduce in conditions and methods COMPLETELY different from the way we do things

for example, in nature, i cant think of anything that would be analogous to using grain spawn to colonize bulk substrates. what we are doing is taking a sterilized substrate (grain) and inoculating it with a clean culture, allowing it to colonize in a controlled environment with virtually no competitors (which never happens in nature), and then breaking up colonized grains (i dont think cubensis colonizes grains in nature, certainly not as primary spawn) and mixing it into pasteurized bulk substrate (which would never happen in nature), and taken from colonization conditions to fruiting conditions in about a month or 2.

i doubt there is ever a point in nature where little bits of fully colonized spawn are distributed throughout a substrate. in nature colonies probably originate from a single point of original inoculation (though this brings up many of my questions) 

in nature, i know our best cow field for cubes growing up had not had cows in it for over 10 years, and a new field a couple miles up the road that had lots of cows never had cubes, for years. but now, i hear both fields grow cubes.

by having controlled artificial conditions focused on optimizing yields and compressing a multi year cycle down into 2 months, we are able to grow much "better" mushrooms than nature. but it makes me wonder about some of the other ways this artificial lifecycle differs from nature, and how these differences might affect our projects

its funny that with all our research and interest in cubes, we dont even know their lifespan in the wild! (or at least i dont, hopefully someone will share)

some of my other questions about strains and MS colonies are fascinating as well. i wish i had a better idea of how these things work

Also, ive been wondering about ways to track genetic markers and hopefully distinguish individual strains genetically. when DNA is extracted from fungi, they often extract the total nucleic acids present, and it can be done to mycellium or to spores. wouldnt this necessarily be the DNA of countless individuals, due to the spores' genetic diversity, and the MS nature of natural colonies?

if this is the case, does one need an isolate to be able to study the dna of a particular strain? or would there be any way to genetically differentiate individual strains within an MS colony?

also, add this to my list in OP:

8. is there any indication that different strains within a colony might serve different functions/purposes within the colony? since some strains individually might not be able to fruit,  but could as part of a colony, are there other functions that might be distributed across different strains within the colony?


Quote:

berserkbadger said:
The world is almost covered in mycelium :smile: its how the trees get so big, it's why your veg rots in your fridge, champagne has its fizz and why we have antibiotics. Fungi outnumber plant species 10 to 1 and they are also some of the largest single living things on earth. I'm talking 2 miles big...

Imagine just how many spores are in the air?? We breathe that stuff all time, there are so many spores that all the scenarios you mentioned are happening at the same time.




Isnt it amazing? :laugh:  that largest one ("Humongous Fungus" is the one i referenced in the OP, and its 3.4 sq miles!!)

absolutely, fungi are a fascinating kingdom, closer to us than to plants. and there is so much to be learned from them. we already use them for the production of everything from citric acid to penicillin and beer, i suspect in the near future there will be many more amazing medical and industrial uses for fungi. we are only recently beginning to identify some of the various unique compounds produced by fungi, and only scratching the surface of what all can be done with those compounds. lots of interesting retroviral and cancer trials going on right now, all kinds of cool stuff

right, the scenarios i mentioned certainly happen all the time, thats why i am interested in learning more about them, especially as it relates and contrasts with our projects
Quote:

dankington said:
Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
in our projects we have condensed this lifecycle down into a month or 2, but fungal colonies in the wild survive long periods of time. Have we artificially condensed a process that usually takes several years down into a few months?




I believe this to be the case. In the very least, several months-a year or so becomes a couple of months.

This is partly conjecture, but…
If you spawn outdoor species (I'm mostly talking woodlovers), they'll take their sweet time getting ready to go, often up to a year. A spent sub might pop a couple loads off, but it's often much later than it would have in one of our tubs. And that's with our help. In the wild, it often seems like the fruit will often grow towards the edges of the mycelium in an effort to expand their network further (like faery rings). But, by adding younger mycelium to the network, you can get your outdoor patches to be fuller through and through.

I know cubes are different, as I don't see them propagating the same way. They AFAIK seem to propagate mostly by germinating in digestive tracts. So I know their cycle to be shorter, but they also don't seem to go for a larger network like say, the giant Amarilla colony in oregon. A cow poop is only so big, after all.

Because of this cycle of the cubensis, they will never see senescence in the wild, as it's MS every time. In fact, I'm not so sure senescence happens in the wild, merely because of the way it all works.

Where the fuck is Adden? He'd have better info on this for sure. I'll post a link in his journal :lol:

Some good stuff here to think about. Thanks for posting :smile:




excellent points you bring up, Im glad you joined the discussion :highfive1:

kinda makes you wonder what other effects such a radically unnatural lifecycle might have on the cultures/projects, other than producing tons of killer shrooms as quickly as possible

regarding fruits on the edge of a fairy ring, i think you are right. but wouldnt the new colonies be new MS colonies, and wouldnt they act as separate colonies? or would they meld?

which makes me want to add another question:

9. ultimately, in the beginning of an MS inoculation, monokaryons from spores meet up and become dikaryotic (forming a strain). but rather than having a million tiny colonies separated by the interface between them, we usually see a single, somewhat organized colony. So obviously at some point early in the process, the smaller MS colonies join together and build a network. but this doesnt really seem to happen if you put two established MS cultures together on a plate, since each colony remains distinct. is there some kind of phase, akin to adolescence or infancy, where the hyphae making up a colony are receptive to collaborating/consolidating/joining up with other colonies? 


i really appreciate the info and discussion guys, yall rock :rockon:


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23739780 - 10/15/16 11:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

bump

been thinking a lot about some of this, and would love to clear up some of my questions, since it affects how i will move forward on some projects

warm regards


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleazur
God of Fuck
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23739796 - 10/15/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh man. Lots of type.
I first hunted wild cubes 15 years ago. I would have sooner, but they didn't grow where I grew up. I have a pretty decent understanding of them. What do you want to know?


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 4,956
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: azur]
    #23739884 - 10/15/16 12:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nothing to do with cubes, but I thought it is something cool to share. Psilocybe ovoids around here are spread by MS, but also flooding redistributing myc during the spring floods. Since they grow exclusively by streams and rivers, high water washes away colonized wood from one spot and it piles up in bends in another, rapidly colonizing the new spot. If we have a flood and I see where a bunch of debris collected, the next year often times I find massive amounts of mushrooms.


--------------------

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
-Robert A. Heinlein 

:takingnotes: Links and teks:takingnotes:
ND's grow log and discussion
Plant thread

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: NDStepp84]
    #23739940 - 10/15/16 01:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

thanks buddy, i would love to have your insight into any/all of this. here are just the raw questions, with the ones im most interested in in bold red:

1. what is the lifespan of a wild cubensis colony? is there a limit to the number of fruiting cycles a culture can sustain, beyond the restrictions placed on it by nutrition and environmental conditions? also, are there different phases in the lifecycle, beyond the basic reproductive cycle, where it has different potential characteristics and behavior? (possibly analogous to human infancy, adolescence, reproductive prime, old age, etc, and the way we can reproduce in some phases but not others, and are more susceptible to illness in some phases than others) 

2. in an "individual" such as "Humongous Fungus" or a wild cubensis colony, would the colony be likely to consist of numerous strains (like a MS grow)? or is it an individual strain, like a monoculture? i would suspect numerous strains to be present, but what i read about the "largest living organism" is often confusing

3. when a fruit is cloned, and multiple tissue samples are taken from different parts of the fruit, is the exact same variety of strains going to be present in each cultured sample? in my agar work, doing 6 plates of the same cloned fruit, i often see huge differences in the appearance and behavior of the myc. Is this the same collection of strains, expressing different characteristics? or are there a different cast of strains present in samples taken from various parts of the same fruit?

4. from year to year, if someone harvests cubes from the same place, it is likely from the same colony right? or overlapping, or subsequent colonies? if a wild colony is hundreds or thousands of years old, are there any effects of senescence, or any other relevant phenomenon we could readily observe as a result of such great age? does age affect wild cubensis colonies?

5. in MS grows, various colonies unite and consolidate somewhat, to network nutrients etc.. does this happen in the wild?

6. in an MS grow, are the same cast of strains present in all parts of the culture/substrate? or is the distribution less homogeneous?

7. in a clone culture, where the first plate shows several clear sectors, wouldnt a true clone culture either use this first plate (with the fruit tissue in the middle +contam risk) or continue to have the exact same variety of in subsequent plates? how could one do this, since we necessarily have to pick something to transfer, and cant pick all at the same time?

8. is there any indication that different strains (or groups of strains) within a colony might serve different functions/purposes within the colony? since some strains might not be able to fruit individually,  but could as part of a multi-strain colony, are there other functions, besides fruiting, that might be distributed across different strains within the colony?

9. ultimately, in the beginning of an MS inoculation, monokaryons from spores meet up and become dikaryotic (forming a strain). but rather than having a million tiny colonies separated by the interface between them, we usually see a single, somewhat organized colony (eventually). So obviously at some point early in the process, the smaller MS colonies join together and build a network. but this doesnt really seem to happen if you put two established MS cultures together on a plate, since each colony remains distinct. is there some kind of phase, akin to adolescence or infancy, where the hyphae making up a colony are receptive to collaborating/consolidating/joining up with other colonies? at what point do they become established enough not to combine with other colonies?


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Edited by c10h12n2o (10/15/16 01:05 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23754587 - 10/20/16 11:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
3. when a fruit is cloned, and multiple tissue samples are taken from different parts of the fruit, is the exact same variety of strains going to be present in each cultured sample? in my agar work, doing 6 plates of the same cloned fruit, i often see huge differences in the appearance and behavior of the myc. Is this the same collection of strains, expressing different characteristics? or are there a different cast of strains present in samples taken from various parts of the same fruit?

6. in an MS grow, are the same cast of strains present in all parts of the culture/substrate? or is the distribution less homogeneous?

7. in a clone culture, where the first plate shows several clear sectors, wouldnt a true clone culture either use this first plate (with the fruit tissue in the middle +contam risk) or continue to have the exact same variety of in subsequent plates? how could one do this, since we necessarily have to pick something to transfer, and cant pick all at the same time?





here are some pics to elaborate on these 3 questions a bit:



these plates are all clone cultures taken from a recent fruit i harvested that weighed nearly 300 grams. the tub i harvested it from was an AA+ clone, first flush weighed 3,498 grams. i know its bad form to clone a clone, but there were clearly lots of strains still present



so, like most times i have taken many clone samples from the same fruit, the cultures look and behave quite differently on agar, and often seem to be made up of a different cast of strains, or at least a different distribution of prominence within that cast of strains

it really makes me wonder, are any of these cultures really genetically identical to the fruit, if different strains are present in different cultures (and maybe different parts of the fruit; probably not, but it makes me wonder about the distribution of strains and functions of various strain groups within the colony)

also, since cleaning these up involves picking a sector and transferring it, wouldnt that necessarily limit the number of strains present, and thus not be representative of all the strains initially present in the clone culture, much less the fruit?

anyways, would love some feedback from you guys, it would be great if i could connect some of these dots, or at least broaden the context

warm regards


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
Smurf real estate agent
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23754597 - 10/20/16 11:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Gene regulation and expression can make limited genetics or even isolates have some variance in performance. That's my hunch considering brewing yeast can behave within a range even though brewers use isolates for the most part with all the yeast bought in a tube of some strain being identical twins.

Just like with edibles. If you buy shiitake 75 you get an isolate. An actual strain(not a variety like cubensis spores)

But shiitake 75 won't perform exactly the same from grower to grower because of the variables outside of genetics as well as what the environment does to genetic expression and gene regulation as well

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23754861 - 10/20/16 01:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

that makes a lot of sense, especially when we think in terms of groups of strains, and all the potential ways the genetic variation and conditions can affect the phenotypes expressed

but in a case like this "monster" clone, i took great care to make the plates exactly the same and keep them in the same conditions, the only difference being which part of the fruit i took the cloned tissue from, and how much tissue was used.

i know a lot of this could be the same principle we use in isolation: hoping the various strains and strain groups will differentiate themselves from the rest of the colony by growing in a particular direction on the agar while others grow in a different direction, allowing us to differentiate phenotypes

makes me wonder about a lot of things, particularly how stain groups act within the bigger picture of a colony, and the smaller picture within a fruit, and if their roles differ in any particular context

i dont have anything that i would bet on being an isolate; some of the edibles ive received in trades probably are, but i wouldnt assume so. id love to work with a known monoculture like Shitake 75, for these exact reasons (among others). my main drive towards obtaining isolates is so that i can use them to collect meaningful data points to use for some research projects (big data, yummy), and in developing some computer controlled systems and sensors


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: c10h12n2o] * 1
    #23754977 - 10/20/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

From my limited work with known isolates like Hericium ABM or shiitake 3782 they do indeed have a great deal of stability but small variables can still affect performance. My last run of 3782 had 5 substrates perform identical but one did not. There was no obvious contamination that ever showed up and the sub mix was the same but it didn't popcorn properly and yield suffered.

I should also say that most of my clones have been extremely stable, my RW F2 has only showed variable results when I changed obvious variables. It was consistent in its response to those as well. Cased vs not was a big one as was cased grain vs bulk. Each time the performance for the controls was the same and the response to each specific varable was the same. To that end I'm confident cloning can result in stable results compared with isolates for the most part. I certainly wouldn't consider a clone to be uncontrolled unless it proved itself already to be very unstable. However those seem to be pretty rare, I only had an instance of that once.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Cubensis Lifecycle Questions [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23755042 - 10/20/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

excellent info pasty, thanks for sharing  :chugbeer:

again, that fits in quite well with understanding them in terms of strain groups

pasty, what is your take on #7? for a culture to be truly representative of all strains (and strain groups) found in a sample taken from a fruit, do we have to use the first plate (the one with the tissue sample) for it to be a true clone culture?

often, when i take a clone, there will be several sectors, including tomentose and highly rhizo. i typically transfer from the rhizo sectors, trying to get a more organized culture. but wouldnt this contain a more restricted cast of strains than the initial clone culture, by virtue of the transfers?

i guess that brings up another thought: since we see monocultures express different characteristics as we manipulate variables, is it possible that what we see as multiple sectors could sometimes be the same strain group, just expressing different physical charactaristics? ive long suspected multiple sectors within the same culture to be the same group of strains, only growing in a different direction. but this carries that even further, if the same group of strains could express different phenotypes within the same culture

if so, i would love to identify the variable that would cause a sector made up of the same cast of strains as another to differentiate itself within the same dish


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Cubensis alternative question sawred 803 1 07/13/01 02:51 PM
by Anno
* Re: Terrarium Probs + casing Question. PanTrop 750 2 12/10/99 04:52 PM
by PanTrop
* Agar culture highly contaminated CultyVader 3,115 10 03/25/03 05:51 PM
by CultyVader
* Re: Another colonisation question! paddoholland 985 11 05/02/01 06:30 AM
by paddoholland
* A question and a pic for people who use dung... *DELETED* psilocybe cubensis 1,022 4 06/18/01 08:35 PM
by BrownPastures
* NOT MINE!!!!! CUBENSIS PIKS ALDER_057 4,122 16 05/26/01 05:04 PM
by lizzardking
* an important question about agar culture fugu 1,564 2 02/03/03 07:56 AM
by fugu
* Slow growth psilocybe cubensis, pftek Cherie 1,112 11 05/06/21 08:50 AM
by tiptrippy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
1,941 topic views. 18 members, 163 guests and 144 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.