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Invisiblesudly
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Thoughts on a bicameral conscience.
    #22751221 - 01/08/16 03:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Notes during a 2g dry psilocybin cubensis dose:
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

If you look into a mirror you'll never see your eyes look away.
What if you could?
Maybe this is why an animal can't distinguish between itself and another.
It only has a one camera view.
This is where the idea of bicameralism comes into play.
What if there were a way to gain another perspective on what you are viewing.
In essence having 2 cameras to view everything.
One viewing out.
One viewing back in.
Animals appear to have a singular camera perspective and act as philosophical zombies.
The challenge then would be to teach them that there is not only a view of out but a view of in too.
The thing is that the in and out already exists in an animal. It is their ego verses their instinct. What matters is that they have to be taught how to perceive that there is an in and out from both an in and out perspective.
How to do this is the tricky bit because it takes a lot of time and experience to learn.
What I believe is that it's not a matter of if an animal can learn but when.
Psilocybin mistimes the second camera.


Additional on egos:
- - - - - - - - - -
Is disrupts the superego letting us know it exists.
Psilocybin creates the disturbance that our brains notice.
Like the Xenon dark matter experiment.
Our brain acts like a detector.
Psilocybin disrupts the super ego allowing us to detect bicameralism.

Or that in experiencing psilocybin induced ego death a 'super empathy' is slowly learnt/grown through experience. Like a stalagmite of ego death in the brain.

I believe the accumulation of experiences of synchronicity is what a conscience is.

Quote:

"Shrooms act in other strange ways upon the brain. Psilocybin works by binding to receptors for the neurotransmitter serotonin. Although it's not clear exactly how this binding affects the brain, studies have found that the drug has other brain-communication-related effects in addition to increased synchronicity."
http://www.livescience.com/48704-odd-facts-about-magic-mushrooms.html


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (01/08/16 05:35 PM)

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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22751233 - 01/08/16 03:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I liked this "If you look into a mirror you'll never see your eyes look away. What if you could?"
But The rest is a bit confusing, plus before you make up a word you should check to see if it already exists.:thumbup:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: pineninja]
    #22752809 - 01/08/16 02:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It is rather complicated but it's not made up if you're referring to my use of the word 'bicameralism'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)
http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/theory-of-consciousness-jaynesian-bicameralism-44883.html


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22753389 - 01/08/16 04:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I apologise, Thanks for the links. It seems to have multiple definitions.
bicameral


/bʌɪˈkam(ə)r(ə)l/


adjective

adjective: bicameral; adjective: bi-cameral




(of a legislative body) having two chambers.
"a bicameral Parliament consisting of an appointed Senate and a popularly elected House of Assembly"


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: pineninja]
    #22756362 - 01/09/16 10:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Nice idea,
makes me think of things akin to ego death where you lose the singular perspective you have on things. Your "vision" is broadened to include all not only one.

Like taking 3d photo's you have the offset of the left and right matched to the offset of your individual eyes. what if one wondered? what if your left eye was looking into someone elses right eye, and your right eye was looking back at your right eye from their perspective, and vice versa for them.

interesting exploration of ideas.... i will continue to contemplate


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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22757173 - 01/09/16 01:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I believe the accumulation of experiences of synchronicity is what a conscience is.

I have long been familiar with Jaynes' book and theory, which I originally read in connection to my interest in why people of ancient cultures conversed with their gods in an apparently more regular way. It is a very interesting hypothesis. But I must disagree with the above statement on developmental grounds. Synchronicity may be mind-expansive if one allows it, and that expansion can include a sense of connection with further expands one's empathy. However, one can choose to ignore or diminish by way of reductionism the impact of synchronistic events. Children evidence conscience without ever being capable of comprehending synchronistic events.

"Conscience," is a Superego construct only from a purely Freudian hypothesis. The work of later developmentalists like Jean Piaget and Lawrence Kohlberg, (even their detractor Carol Gilligan) speak more to 'moral development' being a subset of cognitive development. Synchronicity has nothing to do with the essential cognitive and moral development of a human being, especially since moral development begins quite early and not everyone experiences the inner-outer correlation of psychical-physical events in a non-causal way that characterizes synchronicity. Your statement would suggest that a vast number of people who either do not perceive or dismiss synchronistic events, have no conscience!

Conscience develops in invariant stages across some 300 different human cultures as researchers have demonstrated. The early stages are anything BUT what we call conscience. Right and wrong is determined by whether the young child is punished or not punished - much like adult sociopathy. But development from these Pre-Conventional stages to Conventional and Post-Conventional stages, occur independently of what C.G. Jung promulgated as synchronicity. Moral development, as a subset of cognitive development, belong to normal 'ego-psychology' of the average person. When teaching Lifespan Human Development, I have (at the graduate level), always gone beyond the textbooks which never seems to mentions Kolberg's controversial "Transcendental Morality," or "Morality of Cosmic Orientation," which might certainly be the kind of expansion of conscience via synchronicity to non-human creatures, with certain behavioral changes resulting like vegetarianism. So, I always added a Transpersonal component to my instruction. But basic moral development is not the result of synchronistic phenomena. :shrug:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22757769 - 01/09/16 03:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

However, one can choose to ignore or diminish by way of reductionism the impact of synchronistic events.



The point I'm making is that I think it's our ability to perceive synchronicity and either create or ignore a meaning from it that fuels the growth of a conscience. To create or ignore meanings from two separate entities that we use to create a coincidence.
We seem to have a 'god of the gaps' mentality.



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Edited by sudly (01/09/16 06:21 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22758322 - 01/09/16 05:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm afraid this makes no sense to me, particularly since "rudimentary" means basic, and you are trying to make a case for a more establishes conscience: "I'd say people who are as mindful or aware of their own experiences of synchronicity may have more of a rudimentary conscience and are more in the realm of having consciousness than a powerful conscience." Moreover, conscience has much to do with empathy and the ability to feel guilt for having perpetrated an unjustice. These are aspects of one's moral development, which again, is related to cognitive development. As one descends the right side of the bell-curve from Conventional Moral Development to Post-Conventional Moral Development, one could justifiably say that one is entering the realm of high emotional intelligence. Cognitively speaking, morality and its codification into ethics has certain logic behind it.

I had a healthy conscience long before I had experienced synchronicity. I also had a degree of empathy that exceeded many of my cruel little peers while growing up.As for sociopathy, while there are arousal differences in strong sociopaths (they do not register anxiety or fear as acutely as statistically normal people), the attempt to attribute the XYY syndrome to sociopaths has largely been unsubstantiated. There are no known neurophysiological abnormalities that are directly correlated to antisocial behavior. Traumatic brain injuries have most definitely been observed to radically change peoples' behaviors, but nothing inherent.

You are attempting to attribute a relatively rare psychological process to conscience, which has no basis that i am aware of. Conscience is an internalized faculty which has vectors in psychology, sociology, anthropology, theology, and no doubt some other -ologies. When a psychopath like Heinrich Himmler could make a statement like "Adolph Hitler is my conscience," he was abdicating any remaining internal locus of conscience, placing it on an equally psychopathic but more powerful external influence. Hitler and Himmler may have demonstrated certain behavioral loyalties, but in the end, Hitler turned on Himmler. Neither of these beings can be said to have has a conscience in any meaningful sense of the term. Yet Himmler was into some form of Teutonic mysticism where he espoused a unity of blood, a nationalistic spirit which he attempted to elevate to some celestial degree. Yet the SS ideal was anything but spiritual in any meaningful sense either. Oneness might be a unity with strictly demonic forces in the psyche. Conscience cannot be contoured to specific human beings. Any spiritual vector must derive from the spirit of universality. Even so among normal human beings. Conscience can be taught from without, but it isn't truly a conscience until it is internalized and becomes an autonomous center, one's inner gyroscope lending moral balance.

Synchronicity is an important phenomena to me, and coming to understand this "acausal connecting principle" may well expand one's insight-mind, but basic conscience is not a consequence of such experiences in most people. If you correlate such experiences with your own development and sensitivity of conscience, all well-and-good, but it is not valid to generalize that process after-the-fact of your own moral development to synchronicity. IMO.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22758424 - 01/09/16 06:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Just finished editing, hopefully it makes more sense now.

Quote:

"Your statement would suggest that a vast number of people who either do not perceive or dismiss synchronistic events, have no conscience!"




If you can perceive or dismiss your experiences of synchronicity then I think you are aware and have a conscience.
I'd say there are forms of 'rudimentary conscience' whereby youths are not yet highly mindful or aware of their own experiences of synchronicity.

Additionally: I think animals have consciousness but lack a conscience and act as philosophical zombies.
"A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and perception is a hypothetical being that lacks conscious experience, qualia, or sentience."

While animals do display experiences of consciousness like emotions and instinct most of them do not show signs of conscience or active decision making, intelligence.
Some however do. Take service animals for example, dogs can be trained to sniff cancers and dolphins to plant mines through teaching techniques based around intelligent disobedience.

There's also the experiment of a gray parrot named Alex that had the intelligence of a 5 year old and the emotional maturity of a 2 year old.
Quote:

Pepperberg wrote that Alex's intelligence was on a par with that of dolphins and great apes. She also reported that Alex seemed to show the intelligence of a five-year-old human, in some respects, and had not even reached his full potential by the time he died. She said that the bird had the emotional level of a human two-year-old at the time of his death"

"Alex's training used a model/rival technique, where the student (Alex) observes trainers interacting. One of the trainers models the desired student behavior, and is seen by the student as a rival for the other trainer's attention. The trainer and model/rival exchange roles so the student can see that the process is interactive. Pepperberg reported that during times when she and an assistant were having a conversation and made mistakes, Alex would correct them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)





I think animals are capable of conscience but need to be taught it through model/rival training methods that help to differentiate between the real and fake.

This may explain my point of view more clearly:
'I believe the growth of conscience is largely influenced by our ability to accurately disambiguate between subjective and objective experiences.'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22762236 - 01/10/16 03:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

OK...This opens a can of worms, philosophically and psychologically speaking: 'I believe the growth of conscience is largely influenced by our ability to accurately disambiguate between subjective and objective experiences.' The individual's experience is always subjective. Objective reality, would have to mean an awareness that transcended any particular vantage point, and would seem to imply an awareness that simultaneously exists at every possible point in the space-time continuum across intergalactic space, in every coordinate of the vacuity of space.

It is questionable whether the attainment of omniscience (as for example in Buddhism) has any real meaning since the awareness does not belong to an individual, but is unbounded Awareness Itself. But, I do grok the notion of non-dual perception. It happened to me long ago, maybe Asamprajnata samadhi - Awareness of Awareness with a total absence of personal identity (neither name, form, memory, sensation), but an Infinite Expanse of luminous transparency and "Unbearable Compassion." IF that Experience was more than a profoundly "hyperpranic" psychological condition of my human psyche, but was actually a plane/sphere/pleroma of Reality that exists independently of any human mind, I cannot be certain. IF it was a 'place,' then awareness of a metaphysically "objective" Reality was involved. But the paradox is that IF the Radiant Realm was not 'me,' but remains in my memory, then is it (as I later conjectured) the Real 'me?' Is that what each of us Really is in Reality (unavoidable redundancy)? Is this the usually unavailable Source which is what our 'I' or our 'I AM' actually is? And when our body-mind shuts down at physical death, will we again recognize THAT which we have forgotten since before our birth? Will there be utter familiarity as we come to ourselves as "objective" Reality?

I certainly brought back the experience of "Unbearable Compassion" which in a twinkle went from being an Infinite Expanse of Compassion to a piercing Infinitesimal Point in my Heart Center. I cannot separate Compassion from the central determining aspect of my conscience. My conscience is not a Superego introject from my parents, nor some societal mores, nor a code of conduct. Yes, there are the Ten Commandments, but they become superfluous when Compassion has taken their place. It bothers me greatly that because my humane release trap didn't arrive from Home Depot (yet), I used Victor® rat traps and killed 4 rats that had gotten into our garage. Compassion was directed toward my rat-phobic wife more than to these small animals. Insofar as I feel pained at killing even rats, having failed to capture and release them, my conscience is bothered because I do not feel right killing animals (and eating them also). MY conscience is based on Compassion, yet I must still employ Discriminating Wisdom in my acts. I am living in duality, and my subjective experience of Compassion had to constrict from ALL creatures to my wife.

These rats were pretty intelligent. They were sentient creatures, and able to feel pain in addition to exploring and overcoming physical obstacles. They found my mushroom growing bird seed, and straw (which they created a nest with), were frustrated after failing to gnaw the plastic stripping alongside my new garage door, but found entry through the nylon screened exhaust ports on the wall of the garage (now metal-meshed and barred). Clearly Homo sapien conscience has nothing to do with Rattus norvegicus, and whether they have conscience, God alone knows if anyone does. :shrug:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22762683 - 01/10/16 04:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

"The individual's experience is always subjective."
True, I agree.

Quote:


Objective reality, would have to mean an awareness that transcended any particular vantage point, and would seem to imply an awareness that simultaneously exists at every possible point in the space-time continuum across intergalactic space, in every coordinate of the vacuity of space.



Or objective reality could mean a meaningless universe.

I think we live in an objective reality and create a metaphysically "subjective" reality within our brain as the bi product of neurotransmitter movements.

"Unbearable Compassion" = empathy.
"I feel pained at killing even rats"


The rats may have displayed signs of being conscious through their ego-instinct but I would not consider them as having an introspective ability, strong intelligence or conscience.

I think Homo sapien conscience is a step above the consciousness of a rat.

We can introspect and extrospect.
I'd argue that a rat only has one of these abilities but the capability for both.

I believe that humans were simply the first animal to master the abilities of introspection that taught us the behaviors of a conscience.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22763191 - 01/10/16 06:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'll say it again - you can think whatever you choose to hold in your mind as a frame of reference for defining relative reality, but I don't 'believe' things are true until they're substantiated scientifically or phenomenologically. I won't waste time speculating on a rat's ability to be introspective. I doubt it, but I don't know it.

The very fact that meaning exists for 'me,' says that the universe has meaning. If I am a 'nodal point' of self-reflective awareness, as a biological organism I am a locus where the universe has been able to perceive itself. I've introspected, seen my X-rays, seen the inside of my abdomen when I've awakened during hernia surgery. I've looked through microscopes and telescopes, taken powerful psychedelics and seen my mental associations dismantled. I've been under the ocean, flown across the sky, witnessed a UFO (maybe 2). I am aware and awareness by itself means meaning!

Meaningfulness is true in varying degrees in every human being, and to unknown degrees in non-human species. Clearly, a gorilla such as Koko has the ability to reflect. Other creatures have memory even if they may not be reflective. I was once attacked by a hornet in my backyard a couple of hours after I had accidentally gotten white paint on it in the front of my house. I recognized the paint, and it clearly came looking for me. Talk about the expression "mad as a hornet!" A meaningless universe holds no meaning for me.  I perceive meaning, meaningful communication with purpose within the human sphere, and the human sphere is just as metaphysical as it is physical. "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" - John 10:34


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Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/10/16 06:45 PM)

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22763239 - 01/10/16 06:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I loved Julian Jaynes book personally.  It made a lot of sense.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #22763252 - 01/10/16 06:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
I loved Julian Jaynes book personally.  It made a lot of sense.




Even Richard Dawkins, not someone I would care to quote, commented that the book is either rubbish, or genius.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #22763740 - 01/10/16 08:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The very fact that meaning exists for 'me,' says that the universe has meaning.




It's important to recognise that the meanings you have are subjectively created through experiences of synchronicity.

Individual meaning is a subjective novelty we use to find our own happiness in life, the only real objective 'meaning' of life is to spread genes.


A doctor asks his patient what her zodiac sign is, she replies 'cancer'.

What is the meaning behind this?
The answer is ,'a subjective one'.

"A meaningless universe holds no meaning for me"
Same here, I create my own meanings in life and try to make my own happiness.
I think you, I, everyone and everything with a conscience creates it's own meanings.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22763967 - 01/10/16 09:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Synchronicity HAS contributed greatly to the meaning I experience, but so does loving others, helping others, being to the best of my capacity the kind of being I want to meet in others, and Realizations. The orders of life on this planet scream intelligence, intelligent design, and in a word, God.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22764031 - 01/10/16 09:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Synchronicity HAS contributed greatly to the meaning I experience



Those other thing's you've mentioned are irrelevant to this point.

All I can say is that existence precedes essence.

'intelligent design'
Try telling that to a dolphin..
Quote:

"Any animal that spends appreciable time in the ocean should be able to extract oxygen from water via gills. Enlarging the lungs and moving a nostril to the back of the head is a poor work around."




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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22764557 - 01/11/16 12:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

All I can say is that essence precedes existence.

Perhaps irrelevant to you, but so is continuing this go-nowhere dialogue. :bye:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22764579 - 01/11/16 12:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, that is very irrelevant to me.

:objection: I believe existence precedes essence.

Quote:

"A central proposition of Existentialism is that existence precedes essence, which means that the most important consideration for individuals is that they are individuals—independently acting and responsible, conscious beings ("existence")—rather than what labels, roles, stereotypes, definitions, or other preconceived categories the individuals fit ("essence"). The actual life of the individuals is what constitutes what could be called their "true essence" instead of there being an arbitrarily attributed essence others use to define them. Thus, human beings, through their own consciousness, create their own values and determine a meaning to their life."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism




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Re: Thoughts on a bicameral conscience. [Re: sudly]
    #22765886 - 01/11/16 12:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Absolutely terrible definition! Essence is not attributes. Essence is Being. The Ground of being, which is eternal and which is the metaphysical basis from which Existence (Existence, as in Creation viz., the Big Bang) emerged. Existence developed along a Great Chain of Being, from a field of homogeneity in the original energy released from the Singularity to its expansion, thereby creating space and duration (time). Homogenous energy was the primal datum of Existence from which the first particles formed as Protons (positive) and Electrons (negative) after a guestimated 300,000 years. And from that point, Hydrogen could form. From Hydrogen, the first stars formed, then nebulae, galaxies, and thence, every other known element on the Periodic Table. From elements, non-stellar bodies: planets, moons, asteroids, comets, meteors. And these compounds, more complex than Hydrogen and Helium, formed microscopic life, then eventually macroscopic life as the Great Chain of Being developed into Existence from a singular Mystery which is co-extensive with Existence, namely Being. The Eternal Ground of Being is Ontologically primary, hence, "Essence Precedes Existence."


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World Spirit 8,404 45 08/27/02 02:56 AM
by CosmicJoke
* Thoughts on how to achieve the perfect world...
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Shroomalicious 5,705 44 11/01/02 07:17 PM
by johnnyfive

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