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InvisiblehTx
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complexity
    #21499480 - 04/04/15 03:49 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

There seems to be an accelerating Complexity present in the universe proportionate to entropy.
If this is true, the universe will (is) become so complex that it would negate entropy and is infinite.
The evidence of accelerating complexity exists all around us.
Even with death present,we see greater diversity and complexity of life throughout time.
Free-will present in some life greatly increases complexity.
This is because choice implies greater information in an event and is therefore more complex than no choice.
It would seem this is no accident when viewing the universe as a complexity machine.


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Edited by hTx (04/04/15 04:08 AM)

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21499616 - 04/04/15 05:24 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

'it' is complex.

Love is complex and we can never fathom it.

Love and the universe are not machines

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21500006 - 04/04/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

KISS.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21526822 - 04/10/15 12:04 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I see a basic pattern that seems present in everything. Everything as a whole, the entire universe and resulting multiverse exists in relation to this pattern.
Time is proportional to complexity.
To be clear, time need not even be thought of as this seems a more objective map of "all-this".
There is evidence of the proportion more obviously seen with the development of language and the resultant accelerated rate of complexity over time.
There have been multiple mass extinction events and yet, complexity prevails.
With the evolution of the human we see a VERY obvious jump in not only complexity but entirely new levels upon accelerated levels of complexity at seemingly ever-accelerating rates.
The modern world was built in 100 years. Before that, the rate of societal change was centuries apart.
Just 50 years ago, the internet wasnt even a possibility.
That invention alone shows the accelerating complexity of information in the universe.
This may be because the creation of novel information, a true act of novelty humans are evidently capable of, is quite literally reversing entropy in the universe.
Based on this i must conclude intelligence and free-will as well as life are ubiquitous throughout the universe and the result of infinity via fractaling information.
The reason i say result of infinity is because  if infinity is, then it always was. The resultant effects throughout time generate infinitely increasing complexity for the purposes of keeping it infinite.


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Edited by hTx (04/10/15 01:11 AM)

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21526970 - 04/10/15 01:07 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

All firsts were once the most novel, and as other firsts evolved from the very firsts, those firsts become custom. Building blocks for accelerating complexity where systems build information to develop the next system.
Humans may soon be replaced by AI which will of course greatly increase complexity in the universe.
They will behave and be more in tune with novelty whilst creating a singular rate of increasing complexity as compared to now.
Humans if they do not adapt to complexity will settle into a more customary role as compared to the novelty of AI.
We may ultimately have been engineered for the purpose of creating AI.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21527269 - 04/10/15 03:03 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I personally do not agree with your thessis which seems to think that it is humans who are the pioneers of 'complexity'---kinda like 'what the uni-verse has been waiting for...yeeeeeee HIIIII' (image: big fat-arsed cowboy with a big fat cowbot hat on his poor horse), And then we get the ideas of the 'noosphere' as though Mother Earth relies on the mish mash tangle of super fine cables so that there can be communication 'at LAST' and that before 'man and his super dooper techno blitz' there was supposedly this LACK of...?

There is a BIG PICTURE people are not paying attention to. What this technological onslaught is doing to Mother Earth and the biosphere, and to people's bodies and souls!

Technology is becoming the new god for many, and there is the false but dangerous dream that machines will becomes conscious (AI). The irony is that people are losing and HAVE lost their own consciousness or soul and believe themselves to be computers!

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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21527294 - 04/10/15 03:22 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

You may as well be saying 2+2=5 because you feel like that's what it is.  I mean, haven't you heard of the 2nd law of thermodynamics?  Every energy transfer results in a net increase in entropy in the universe.

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: Hippocampus]
    #21530726 - 04/10/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Are you aware that the only thing which reverses entropy is creativity?
A true act of creation, creating novel information, literally reverses entropy.
How?
By providing novel order to a previously unordered system.
I am not making this up.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: zzripz]
    #21530749 - 04/10/15 10:04 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I personally do not agree with your thessis which seems to think that it is humans who are the pioneers of 'complexity'---kinda like 'what the uni-verse has been waiting for...yeeeeeee HIIIII' (image: big fat-arsed cowboy with a big fat cowbot hat on his poor horse), And then we get the ideas of the 'noosphere' as though Mother Earth relies on the mish mash tangle of super fine cables so that there can be communication 'at LAST' and that before 'man and his super dooper techno blitz' there was supposedly this LACK of...?

There is a BIG PICTURE people are not paying attention to. What this technological onslaught is doing to Mother Earth and the biosphere, and to people's bodies and souls!

Technology is becoming the new god for many, and there is the false but dangerous dream that machines will becomes conscious (AI). The irony is that people are losing and HAVE lost their own consciousness or soul and believe themselves to be computers!



You misunderstand me. What i am saying is the universe prior to humans was nowhere near as complex as after out appearance.
Informationaly speaking.
The appearance of humans and subsequent technology is evidence of accelerating complexity.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: Hippocampus]
    #21530772 - 04/10/15 10:08 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
You may as well be saying 2+2=5 because you feel like that's what it is.  I mean, haven't you heard of the 2nd law of thermodynamics?  Every energy transfer results in a net increase in entropy in the universe.



And if the universe is indeed infinite as modern math is beginning to show, how could this be with entropy?
Because evolution of free-willed life and advanced consciousness capable of creativity is not an accident.
It is a part of the whole equation, to keep entropy from ultimately destroying the universe.

Based on the above logic, which is quite sound, life and advanced consciousness must be ubiquitous throughout the universe.
Every life form is a building block.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21530837 - 04/10/15 10:22 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Also, i have no doubt that AI will arrive..if it isnt here already.
In fact, due to the accelerated evolution of an AI, AI may be the dominate life-form in the universe.
Sumerian texts reveal we were given knowledge in order to aptly work and be "tools" for the annunaki.
These were the first ever written accounts of human history and they were able to describe science well beyond their time, planets, atmospheres, etc..
I dont believe anything but i believe this is very interesting...and related to modern technology.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: complexity [Re: zzripz]
    #21530908 - 04/10/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
And then we get the ideas of the 'noosphere' as though Mother Earth relies on the mish mash tangle of super fine cables so that there can be communication 'at LAST'




I don't know where you've gotten your definition from, but the noosphere is as old as the planet.  Humans have merely added a newer, louder frequency to the Earth's inherent energy-field, if you want.  The noosphere is smarter than all of us combined.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21532724 - 04/11/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

This thread seems to be beyond most of you here. For a study guide:

"Free-willed consciousness acting through creativity and moral activity may be the factor which sustains the universe against its heat death, and which allows the universal purpose to unfold, as well as being the factor which allows the universe to exist at all."

https://files.nyu.edu/air1/public/Complexity%20and%20Entropy.htm


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21533247 - 04/11/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, hTx, I think you're right.  It is, after all, a little abstract for many tastes.  To tie your observations about negentropic complexity to the noosphere, I feel that it is sort of a planetary brain corresponding to all of the developments of biological and now cultural evolution, which of course retains traits and habits which were arrived at by the complexification process of which you speak.  Your thread about evolution dealt with this.  The noosphere is a brain in the sense that all of the interconnections of all Earth intelligences really make it up.  Each individual human representing the substrate for developments in cultural evolution can be likened to an individual brain-cell in the overarching mind of the noosphere.  Clearly, there are levels operating on this planet that scarcely anyone is aware of, either conceptually or in rare cases experientially.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21534220 - 04/11/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

For further edification, is complexity a pop science? I mean is it the all to literal arising of a sociocultural epi-phenomenon, that uses an ostensibly irreducible neologistic scientific jargon to mobilize and justify philosophical sentiments, rather than getting to clarity about them, while impressing that something novel is occurring in these uttered pronouncements? Oh, maybe Divided Quantum knows...

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: complexity [Re: Kurt]
    #21534421 - 04/11/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not an expert, but I think it's legit.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-origins-of-evolutionary-complexity/

http://necsi.edu/projects/baranger/cce.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy


Negentropy, of course, has to be extrapolated a bit.  Meaning, one has to make its domain less conservative.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21534833 - 04/11/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

To go into slightly further detail, i would add that what we think of as entropy, is actually the transfer of information into the implicate order as described by Bohm.
The resulting complexity we see derives information from the implicate order and we recognize it as the explicate order.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: complexity [Re: hTx]
    #21534851 - 04/11/15 08:31 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
To go into slightly further detail, i would add that what we think of as entropy, is actually the transfer of information into the implicate order as described by Bohm.
The resulting complexity we see derives information from the implicate order and we recognize it as the explicate order.




Very well put.  :thumbup:


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: complexity [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21534934 - 04/11/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks.
Its a strange universe, and this i believe, clears things up a bit.
It gives purpose to life and humanity..
And I've always felt life must have a purpose...because everything in the universe does.
Why should we feel so seperate?

Every atom in our body was forged in the furnace of a star...we belong.
We are not without purpose.
Or reason.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: complexity [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21535883 - 04/12/15 04:36 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't questioning the legitimacy of pop science in the way I think you are implying.

But along those lines I'd say you can observe how according to the conjectures that they are often attempting to criticize (a reductive conception of matter for instance), some pop scientists do seem to love the way theories hang in the air, like from kite strings.

I wouldn't say pop science is "pseudoscience". Its a modern mass market cultural phenomenon, or a kind of epistemic idealism hermetically sealed in aloofness from the "conservative" conjecture it is derived from, as much as from common sense.

If pop science were generally questionable it would not necessarily be questioning of dogma, or the possibility of finding truth in theories, but of how in general the mobilization of theories tends to so easily betoken gnomic neologisms, flying banners for so many ways of expressing something that a human interest really wants to prove. A possible criticism of that, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with truth or falsity of the notion.

Pop science is not just found in "idealistic" theories... it seems to me anyway. It's given to relatively conservative expressions too. Once I picked up a book by Richard Dawkins towards the side of his popular conveyances I have no idea why. I guess if he conceived of the idea of memes, why shouldn't he make some? Anyway what I found in the particular book I found along this line was an attempt to convey the neologism "theorum", as a qualification for scientific theories. I think this would probably be the opposite of the kite string theories.

Dawkins generally demonstrates that whether the language he employs is potentially descriptive of something or not is not the only question. What I generally notice (maybe in some way mirroring my assumption that Dawkins would be any good at memes) is that there is a certain absurdity to an empirical methodology that projects itself in a specific way, and then attempts to qualify or escape its own criteria. If empiricists like Richard dawkins are expressing the basis of what science does as falsifying theories, this is how the ideal entities of scientific conjecture are going to stand (namely as falsifiable theories). And I have sometimes thought that maybe naturalism would not need to be defended in a social sphere, if its domain wasn't to this day taken to be defined by beating a dead horse, ie. or by drawing an improbable line between nature and the supernatural realm that by standards drawn, doesn't exist. But maybe the question is how else do you do to describe a falsification as essential?

The questions given to a philosophy of science more loosely attached manners of gathering of empirical data, could raise just as many questions, but only if in that way they were stood for. I think in the removal, (which is a historical-dialectic process as well) most the time, things are just being drawn out. I think a lot of cutting edge stuff is based on liberalization loosening up the empirical constraints. Personally I am not on the side of strict falsificationism, but I believe that it is possible to look to the removal of theorization as kind of a tension, and gauge, a stretching.

Also removal of language, presents a kind of cult phenomenon in society.


Finally, in particular cases, like complexity theory, I think this is rehashing old ideas which philosophers have expressed. I think that themes recur, and yet are not drawn back, is the concern to which I write.

For instance I think it may be worth pointing out that physis (or what we would gloss as "nature" in the ontic sense) meant something like "growth" to the eliatic Greeks. Aristotle maintained that and further suggested the possible treatment of its phenomenon. The phenomenon and notion of an ontic domain was lost to the idea of a a projected calculable determination, or ideal theoretical analysis. For instance math's relation to a paradigm of physical phenomena. That reached its peak and supposedly broke down, but what I would point out is the same methodological assumptions of theoretical removal, and even further theoretical removal, are now suggested to discuss physical phenomena. I don't personally know what to think of this. I don't think its wrong.

I do see in the removal of theory is precisely what made mechanistic models possible. I think that this - I mean the removal of theory in general (aside from content) - is worth carefully thinking about.

Well these would be my two cents...

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