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Offlinekm92
Stranger
Registered: 08/05/14
Posts: 4
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Bacillus?
    #20379020 - 08/05/14 04:08 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Hello everybody.

I'm new to this forum and I bought a kit to start learning the basics (yeah, I know what you guys think of them)

Anyways, my first flush went really well, and i repeated the process (put water, waited 12 hours, took the water out...) but i think I got a contamination.

Can you guys please check this out and tell me what you think?

(some pins are a little bruised I know, I have to be more careful next time)

The supposed contamination looks like hot glue that has dried, and has a yellow touch to it.








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Offlinekm92
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Registered: 08/05/14
Posts: 4
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Bacillus? [Re: km92]
    #20382860 - 08/06/14 01:42 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Can anyone help me out?

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InvisibleTheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Bacillus? [Re: km92]
    #20386470 - 08/07/14 03:40 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Probably just metabolites. I don't see any clear indication of bacteria. How does it smell?

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Offlinekm92
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Posts: 4
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Bacillus? [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #20387516 - 08/07/14 11:25 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Hi. Thanks for the help.

Whats does metabolites mean? Sorry but English isn't my first language.

About the smell, it smells a little bit like mushrooms but it is so light I think it's from the previous flush. No nasty smell or anything like that.

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InvisibleTheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Bacillus? [Re: km92]
    #20389522 - 08/07/14 08:00 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Metabolites are an antibiotic compound produced by the mycelium. You will often see metabolite production in response to contamination, over colonized spawn, high temperatures. (note that over colonized spawn and high temperatures likely increase bacterial load, which explains the incidence of metabolite production in these scenarios)

RogerRabbit on METABOLITES:

*That quote above by stamets in TMC written in 1985 when he was fairly new to cultivation was a mistake. He corrected it very well in the 1990's when he wrote 'Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms', where he correctly stated they are antibiotic compounds.
Furthermore, the journal of medicinal mushrooms publishes articles on a regular basis identifying the various antibiotic compounds in various species of mushroom mycelia metabolites.
The first mass use of metabolites in medicine was in WW2 when the production of metabolites from the Penicillium mold saved thousands of Allied soldiers lives due to a product that was named Penicillin after the mycelium metabolites it was made from. I'm completely in awe that you folks don't know this. It should have been taught in elementary and junior high school, both in history and science. It's not brand new news.
Furthermore, there is a time and place for vulgarities. I'm no prude and no religious freak by a long shot, but in science one need not use vulgar terms if he wishes to be taken seriously. I'll be the first one to let out a four-letter tirade over politics when I'm having a few beers down at the pub, but not here, and not in conjunction with mycology. I hope this clears it up. I'll stay on it until people stop using the wrong terms. It's no different than correcting someone for referring to an uncased bulk substrate incorrectly as a 'casing' or referring to manure as a spawn, rather than a substrate, etc. It's simply incorrect and should be corrected or new growers trying to learn get fed the wrong information. METABOLITES

*Mushroom mycelium secretions do not equate to human urine in any way, shape or form. That is disinformation and it makes the hair on my neck stand on end when I see it constantly repeated. They are unrelated. In fact, the secretions from many fungi are used to make antibiotics. Read up on the production of penicillin, tetracycline, erythromycin and other antibiotics that are made from the secretions of fungi. This has been known for a long time in professional circles. For some reason, people around here keep repeating the same old 'mushroom piss' crap and others read it and repeat it ad nauseum. The secretions, which contain acetone and other volatile compounds can actually be fermented and distilled out of the liquid culture the fungi mycelium is being grown in. In commercial penicillin production, large fermentation tanks of over 30,000 gallons are common. It is not the penicillium mold itself that they make penicillin from, but its secretions. Please stop using urine as an analogy for the antibiotic secretions of our precious fungi. METABOLITES MYCELIUM PISS

*Actually, I have harvested metabolites and used them on other molds, which they kill. Often, when a grain jar is left too long after full colonization, metabolites will begin building up in the bottom of the jar. These can be poured right on an infection in another tray. If caught in time, many molds can be neutralized this way. I doubt it's the antibiotic properties of the metabolites at work against molds, but rather the solvents. Antibiotics are effective against bacteria, which isn't a contaminant of casing layers. METABOLITES FIGHT

*Mycelium produces metabolites in response to contaminants or stress. These are antibiotic compounds that the mycelium produces to kill competitor fungi or bacteria. They are not in any way, shape or form related to the urine that is secreted by mammals. The metabolites produced by mycelium of the penicillium fungus for example are used in human medicine as antibiotics to kill bacteria. The metabolites produced by mushroom mycelium serve a similar purpose. METABOLITES PURPOSE

*Actually, metabolites don't attract bacteria; they're a response to it. They're antibiotic. It sounds like you have some bacteria in the jar and they're being excreted by the mycelium to help fight it off. You can lay the jar on its side, and then rotate it once per day. This keeps uncolonized parts out of the liquid, helping them to finish up. The above assumes it's a grain jar. If it's a pf jar, disregard. Laying on its side and rolling can disturb the vermiculite filter leading to contaminants entering. METABOLITES

*Experiment. Put some bacteria on a petri dish, and then put down a line of metabolite. Watch how they stop the spread of the bacteria. Without a lab, I doubt you could make your own antibiotics, but penicillin and the other common antibiotics are made from fungi metabolite. I've also found that mushroom metabolites will kill trichoderma mycelium on a petri dish. In fact, it would probably kill off any competitor fungi, even other mushroom species. USES FOR MYCELIUM METABOLITES

*Mycelium often produces metabolites of different colors depending on what infection they're fighting. This red color was on the top of the vermiculite barrier where the mycelium had worked it's way up to where contaminants had entered through the vent hole and were laying dormant on the vermiculite barrier. When the mycelium reached that spot, it produced metabolites (antibiotic compounds) to kill the mold spores or bacteria that were present in that location. METABOLITES

*The metabolites are antibiotic secretions, so when they're in large amounts, it usually means something is up. High lonization temps will also lead to metabolite production, so remember to colonize jars at room temperature. A jar with a good filter will contain any contaminants that are within, so don't toss it out. Don't use any jar with a lot of metabolites for grain-to-grain transfers, but if they colonize fine, they're good to use for spawning to bulk. METABOLITES

*Colonized poo trays sometimes emit a little honey yellow, to as dark as Tobacco juice colored metabolite type waste on the top of the tray. So long as it colonized nicely & the metabolite waste doesn't turn into a gusher. It's good to go. Been there & done that a few times, especially with big bulk trays that had a strong cow/poo mixture in them. The stuff is commonly called MYC PISS. If it's fully colonized, add a casing cover & go for it. METABOLITES

*There will be no live bacteria in the metabolites. They're acids and often ethylene based to kill bacteria and are produced in response to it. There may be bacteria in the grains, but not in the metabolites. That's why grain jars should be used at full colonization, not weeks later. The metabolites are the myceliums defense mechanism. I've used the metabolites from Hypsizygus ulmarium to kill bacteria and trichoderma on a petri dish. METABOLITES

*It's metabolites since they're yellow. That is a sign of too much bacteria and/or excessive temperature. Is that uncased manure? I'd suggest gently dabbing the excessive off with a clean dry paper towel. The metabolites help to fight infections, but too much of a good thing isn't always good. Dry it off, and increase air exchange. You want high humidity, especially if fruiting uncased, but you also want lots of fresh air. METABOLITES

*The manure isn't eating the holes in the aluminum, the mushroom metabolites are. I have a mushroom that was sent for metals testing after harvesting from the tray pictured below. I should know within a few days if aluminum was conducted up into the fruit body. We know that heavy metals end up in the fruits, but as far as I know, nobody has ever had a fruit professionally tested for aluminum contamination. METABOLITES

*It sounds like metabolites and is often caused by excess temperature, which leads to bacterial contamination. Metabolites are antibiotic and are secreted in response to the bacteria or molds. Incubate at room temperature for best results and lowest contamination rate. I haven't even owned an incubator in ten years. They're not necessary and cause far more problems than they solve. METABOLITES

*The metabolites are generally produced in response to bacteria that are stimulated by high incubation temperatures. My rule of thumb is if you can see visible metabolites in the bottom of the jar, it's ok to spawn to bulk, but don't do a g2g with it, or the dormant bacteria will come back to life in the fresh grains. Next time, incubate your grains at room temperature. METABOLITES

*The excess moisture you see is metabolic discharges from the mycelium trying to fight off the contaminants, and/or metabolites from the molds trying to fight off the mushroom mycelium. Start over, and use a very light syringe, or better yet, prove your spores on agar, and transfer a proved, clean mycelium culture into your rye and watch it take off. METABOLITES

*A large amount of metabolites generally means a bit of bacteria in the jar. The metabolites are antibiotic secretions, so when they're in large amounts, it usually means something is up. High colonization temps will also lead to metabolite production, so remember to colonize jars at room temperature. METABOLITES

*Mycelia metabolites are not urine. They're antibiotic and much more like medicine than pee. In fact, they also help to break down the substrate for the mycelium, much like the saliva in our mouth (which is also not urine) helps break down our food, making it available to the mycelium. METABOLITES

*Elevated temperatures are a major cause of that. The high temperature stimulates bacteria, and then the mushroom mycelium must secrete antibiotic metabolites to deal with them. It's important to use room temperature for colonization, especially with larger substrates. CAUSES FOR METABOLITES

*Antibiotic drugs such as penicillin are, and have been made from fungal metabolites for over fifty years. It is not a theory. I have used a syringe to draw metabolite from a grain jar and placed it on bacteria in a petri dish. It kills the bacteria dead within hours. WHAT ARE METABOLITES

*Mycelia metabolites are not urine. They're antibiotic and much more like medicine than pee. In fact, they also help to break down the substrate for the mycelium much like the saliva in our mouth (which is also not urine) helps break down our food. METABOLTITES

*Antibiotics such as penicillin are made from fungi metabolites. They're a powerful anti-bacterial. They also help the mycelium to break down substrate materials. There are still a lot of unknowns to be researched, but they're not urine or feces, that's for sure. METABOLITES

*I'm convinced many growers who think they 'cut away lipstick mold' and succeeded, actually cut away harmless metabolites from their jars. Metabolites are produced by the mycelium in order to attack competitors. They're a weapon. METABOLITES

*Metabolites are a natural secretion of fungi both as a defense mechanism against competitors and to break down food sources. Molds produce as much or more metabolites than mushroom mycelium. METABOLITES

*It's just metabolites from the high temperature. NEVER use a jar with a lot of metabolites for grain-to-grain transfers, but you can use it to spawn to bulk or lay in a tray and case. METABOLITES

*They're actually antibiotic compounds used to neutralize competitor fungi and bacteria. That's why medical antibiotics are made from them. METABOLITES

*An excess of metabolites can point towards bacterial contamination, over-colonization of a substrate, or too high a temperature. METABOLITES

*Yes. Excessive heat will cause the mycelium to produce more, so if there’s a lot of metabolite, try to reduce temperature. METABOLITES

*The metabolites will do no harm. You can leave the substrate soaking in it. They destroy contaminants, not cause them. METABOLITES

*A large amount of metabolites generally means a bit of bacteria in the jar. METABOLITES

*Actually, metabolites don't attract bacteria; they're a response to it. METABOLITES

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Offlinekm92
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Registered: 08/05/14
Posts: 4
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Bacillus? [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #20395814 - 08/09/14 01:15 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks mate, I hope it's just that.

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InvisibleBuck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
Re: Bacillus? [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #20395877 - 08/09/14 01:34 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

*Actually, I have harvested metabolites and used them on other molds, which they kill. Often, when a grain jar is left too long after full colonization, metabolites will begin building up in the bottom of the jar. These can be poured right on an infection in another tray. If caught in time, many molds can be neutralized this way. I doubt it's the antibiotic properties of the metabolites at work against molds, but rather the solvents. Antibiotics are effective against bacteria, which isn't a contaminant of casing layers. METABOLITES FIGHT





:takingnotes:


--------------------
Fail to plan and you plan to fail.

Enter the Ban Lottery

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InvisibleTheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Bacillus? [Re: Buck513]
    #20396223 - 08/09/14 03:22 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Crazy stuff, huh? :cool:

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InvisibleBuck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
Re: Bacillus? [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #20397167 - 08/09/14 08:15 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Indeed. I was like :whatwhatwhat: when I seen that hahaha.

I wanna "harvest" metabolites sometime and give that whole thing a go on some mold or something.

Thanks RR as always!


--------------------
Fail to plan and you plan to fail.

Enter the Ban Lottery

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OnlineNorthernerM
splelling chceker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/29/12
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Re: Bacillus? [Re: Buck513]
    #20402354 - 08/11/14 05:59 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Crazy side pinning sub. I hope the top is just as lively.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.

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