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Esmash
aye Pan Cyan!!!
Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 558
Loc: the Hot Desert
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Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it?
#19584261 - 02/18/14 08:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I was just wondering, Do you guys think any of the P. Cubensis spores (sold world wide) a few might actually be P. Subcubensis? I mean it's possible right? Maybe someone found a subcubensis, thought it was a regular one, and then isolated/cleaned it up on agar then sold the spores... I'm not sure...?
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Caddilac
(*'
Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 469
Loc: WY.
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: Esmash]
#19584278 - 02/18/14 08:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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totally thought the same shit once.
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Caddilac
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Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 469
Loc: WY.
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: Caddilac]
#19584279 - 02/18/14 08:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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what are the differences?
*smaller spores
ha. you got a nice "?'
i bet not many of any use microscopes to check ah?
Edited by Caddilac (02/18/14 08:32 AM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: Caddilac]
#19584360 - 02/18/14 09:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sub-cubensis
I've always felt he pulled that out of his ass. Cubes are cubes. A variation doesn't make a new or 'sub' species. It doesn't work that way. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Esmash
aye Pan Cyan!!!
Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 558
Loc: the Hot Desert
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19584430 - 02/18/14 09:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who did? Gaston Guzman?? I think that's the dude who declared it and named it? I'm not sure. Thanks for the contributions to this thread everyone
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: Esmash]
#19584526 - 02/18/14 10:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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phenotype expression is often seen as a big change when it's relatively little of the actual genes playing a role. So be it small spores or leuistic traits in AA+ etc... The variety of cube is still 99.99% the same with limited heterozygosity so on average it shows a big phenotypic expression which is maybe only played by a few genes out of millions. You see the change and think its big but the change is actually really really small. So all your cubes are the same. We just think the differences are big but they're really not at all. You can get more variation from cube to cube in a MS grow than the difference between varieties it's just not as easy to see because only a few genes will make such a big impact on the way the fruit body displays.
Quote:
Workman said:
Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity. This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other. Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions. For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms. If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.
Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes. Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each. Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall.
Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later. In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations. There is a net loss of heterozygosity. Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.
So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strainVariety is stable even from multispore.
Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection. In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.
100% wild print 50% 1st generation from wild print 25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print 12.5% 3rd generation..... 6.25% 4th generation..... 3.12% 5th generation..... 1.56% 6th generation..... 0.78% 7th generation.....
You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation. This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from. Attempting to isolate traits in well established strainsVarieties results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).
In summary:
Popular classic strainsVarieties in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.
New strainsVarieties, from wild material or cross breeding between different strainsEstablished varieties of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.
Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever. Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding. Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.
Does that help?
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (02/18/14 10:23 AM)
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: bodhisatta]
#19584895 - 02/18/14 12:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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wow bodhi i had never seen that! that was a great explanation, i've never read it all in one place before. that should be a sticky in strain thread
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles
Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: blindingleaf]
#19584939 - 02/18/14 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: Esmash]
#19585264 - 02/18/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Esmash said: Who did? Gaston Guzman?? I think that's the dude who declared it and named it? I'm not sure.
In 2005, I got to lmao watching Guzman and Wasser both wearing suit and tie, on their hands and knees picking a P cyanescens patch I had just shown them. (we didn't see either of them until the next afternoon)
Gaston was just about to take the stage to speak when I dropped a handful of cyans into his lap. They were growing about 50 feet from the side door of the auditorium. There was over 1000 mycophiles there and nobody had thought to check the old, neglected Rhododendron patch behind the building, which had a full flush of several thousand wavy caps under the bushes! Mrs Rabbit found them first. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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rickjamez20
Shroomer
Registered: 03/06/11
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19585386 - 02/18/14 02:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Lol, watching them pick that patch must've been hilarious
-------------------- http://iacopoapps.appspot.com/hopalongwebgl/ https://www.outpan.com/app/44bdd9869c/interactive-fluid-simulation - If you're tripping click here. Thank me later. Every single person deserves a psychedelic experience, make it happen.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld
Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Do we ever grow Subcubensis and not even realize it? [Re: rickjamez20]
#19588374 - 02/19/14 02:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Gaston was just about to take the stage to speak when I dropped a handful of cyans into his lap.
i would have loved to see his face. probably a combination of panic and awe!
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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