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InvisiblehTx
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On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity
    #18448909 - 06/20/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I will postulate that society as a whole respects objectivity more so than creativity in regards to intelligence. It is my position that we should respect both, equally, in regards to every observed thing in the universe.
What makes an intelligent individual, intelligent? What makes an intelligent individual, a genius? For further clarification of the topic at hand let me define the terms I am using.

Objectivity: Judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices.
Creativity:: The use of the imagination or original ideas, esp. in the production of an artistic work.

I would like to broaden the definition of creative as well by saying all creativity occurs within the framework of consciousness, and objective could be seen as all that happens outside the framework of consciousness. 

So which is it?
Objectivity?
Creativity?
Both?

If something is objective, than can it be written about creatively?

I think this is an obvious yes, in the sense that everything objective that we see (reality) is also a creation of our own mind, as it must pass through your own eyes and nervous system for us to be able to see it. The signals coming from outside are formed into a picture we call "This." on the inside. Everything you observe, even without thought, is a creation of your own mind.

Since humans (and all other sentient beings) are creative, can they be written about, objectively?

I think in some sense, yes, but in another sense, no. This is why we have the great materialistic vs non-materialistic debate on consciousness. The objectivity ends quite abruptly when it comes to consciousness, which is why the subject is subjected towards an on-going debate and ever-lasting interest. Thousands of prominent truth-seekers... philosophers, scientists, psychologists and the religious have all written creatively about the objective, claiming its divine objectiveness as truth, only to have someone else come a long and say
"you are so wrong...here is an inconsistency...it does not match up with what is currently observed..or here it makes sense this way too."

Until is is proven, objectively, whether consciousness arises from the brain and dies with the brain or not, I don't think we are going to make much progress in the material vs non-material debate other than the answer is currently without sufficient evidence.
In this case, to advance the objective quantity of the creative individual we must have some sort of objective scientific observation, or some sort of objective logic. The problem with logic is, that logic told us that the earth was flat a few thousand years ago, that earth was the center of the universe. This is the same exact problem we see in science. We receive all sorts of objective information, yet we still interpret it creatively, and so the meaning behind experimentation is subject to subjectivity.

I feel objectivity and creativity go hand in hand, and always will. That objectivity changes with creativity and vice-versa. It seems foolish to not see consciousness as a variable in regards to everything experienced, including mathematics, science, and physics.
I feel we will make leaps and bounds in the advancement of objectifying our universe by giving consciousness the respect it deserves, in all aspects of study.


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Edited by hTx (06/20/13 11:57 PM)

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: hTx]
    #18449020 - 06/20/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

It seems that you're trying to make "objectivity" and "creativity" mutually exclusive options, and also using "creativity" as a guise for "subjectivity." I think your point would be made clearer if you talked about the distinction between objectiveness & subjectivity, since it seems that is the heart of this thread.

I always find it fascinating that the man who may as well have been the SPOKESPERSON for subjectivity has renounced his position on it. Frank Jackson is a beast of a creative and a skilled logician at that. You may not know his name, but if you've had a philosophy course on consciousness, then you know his contribution - "What is it like to see red?" I find his argument extremely convincing. I'm not sure how he became unconvinced. The argument isn't that far off from real life, either - change a few details (like holding some poor person hostage, basically) and you have an actual scenario.


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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18449308 - 06/20/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
It seems that you're trying to make "objectivity" and "creativity" mutually exclusive options, and also using "creativity" as a guise for "subjectivity." I think your point would be made clearer if you talked about the distinction between objectiveness & subjectivity, since it seems that is the heart of this thread.

I always find it fascinating that the man who may as well have been the SPOKESPERSON for subjectivity has renounced his position on it. Frank Jackson is a beast of a creative and a skilled logician at that. You may not know his name, but if you've had a philosophy course on consciousness, then you know his contribution - "What is it like to see red?" I find his argument extremely convincing. I'm not sure how he became unconvinced. The argument isn't that far off from real life, either - change a few details (like holding some poor person hostage, basically) and you have an actual scenario.



Thanks for that, I edited OP and made a clearer distinction. Also, we could say the creative aspect could be seen as 'consciousness' as well. 
The point of the thread, and the position I take, is that consciousness (creativity) is the most overlooked quality behind all things 'objective'. So even objective observations are bound to have a creative twist to them, no matter how objective we think we are being.


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Light up the darkness.

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18449406 - 06/20/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

>> What makes an intelligent individual, intelligent?

Intelligence can be adequately understood as a measure of clarity, in terms of an individual's perceptual correspondence with reality, and the efficiency of their relationship with it.  "Intelligence" is a conceptual framework for measuring the sophistication of these two conscious facilities, just as the metric system is a conceptual framework for measuring more basic phenomenon.


>> What makes an intelligent individual, a genius?

Genius can be adequately understood as an intelligence which has surpassed what was previously within the scope of comprehension.  When an individual's perceptual fluency becomes so acute as to force the redefinition of intelligence in a given field, there arises a phenomenon adequately encapsulated by the word "genius."  "Genius" is intelligence turned up to 11.  Over time, the scale itself is redefined, until a new tier of genius forces another redefinition.

Creativity is a component of genius.  Creativity implies abstract thinking, which is to say that it implies the linking of concepts or ideas in an imaginative or otherwise novel manner.  Creativity is the gateway to genius, as it is this novelty which compels states of transcendent intelligence.

For example, J.S Bach was a well-studied musician.  He was equipped with an extensive body of knowledge of musical theory, and had developed a fluent understanding of musical form and structure.  In this sense, J.S Bach was a highly intelligent musician.  Yet, he was very much more than this.  By applying his capacity for abstract thinking, which itself was highly developed in its dynamic sophistication, J.S Bach committed to history some of the most transcendent musical works ever created.  In this way, J.S Bach is widely regarded as a musical genius.


>> If something is objective, than can it be written about creatively?

This is another matter entirely.  Strictly speaking, words are inherently imprecise, and any phenomenon which achieves its conveyance through the carrier wave of language is thereby not "objective", in that it has been altered by the process of articulation and interpretation.  There is nothing about this simple reality which precludes the creative presentation of wholly objective ideas.  It is simply that creativity in this context serves a specific function.

In order to convey a concept or experience with precision (ie., objectively), it is necessary to structure its communication in such a way as to convey all of its components clearly and effectively.  Achieving this requires an element of abstract thinking.


>> Since humans (and all other sentient beings) are creative, can they be written about, objectively?

Strictly speaking, this is impossible, for the reasons I mentioned above.  However, the effort can be undertaken in an objective manner, which in this context means the deliberate suspension of personal persuasion or bias. 

The degree of objectivity attained can be thought of in the same way we understand looking at a mountain as compared to looking at a photograph of the mountain.  In 1950, when the photographic camera was not a very sophisticated machine (ie., not very "intelligent" in terms of its interface with reality), the picture of the mountain would be a far less accurate in its representation, or in other words it would be a far less "objective" account. 

Fast forward to today, however, and use a camera which has advanced significantly in sophistication, and the photograph becomes much more faithful to the actual appearance of the mountain.  It is, in a manner of speaking, a more "objective" representation.


With all of this, it is clear that objectivity and creativity are not mutually exclusive, but neither are they mutually inclusive.  Their effectiveness of their co-application depends upon the intent and the requirements of the circumstances to which these two facets of consciousness are applied.  Further, it could be said that perceiving this directly, navigating it skillfully and fluidly, is itself an object which can be measured with the conceptual yardstick of intelligence.


--------------------


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18480191 - 06/27/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I would like to answer a few of my questions I asked as well, I have changed my original stance with some experience/meditation in the past few days...

We must respect and seek objectivity, even if its patterned a little differently, objectivity most definitely exists.

The most objective are the most true to reality, therefore able to better and more accurately navigate reality. Creativity has nothing to do with objectivity other than we can write in many different ways about the same objective thing.

I'm tired of being vague..

Our inherent subjectivity leaves us vulnerable to lies, magical thinking, faux beliefs, and subsequent enslavement.

If there is such a thing as a global elite, I imagine they are quite objective, and seek to keep most people in subjectivity so as to more easily create the illusions that surround subjective awareness.

Objectivity is equivalent to truth, in my eyes. The truth (objective universe and becoming one with it in objectivity) shall free us all.


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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: hTx]
    #18481726 - 06/27/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

>> Objectivity is equivalent to truth, in my eyes. The truth (objective universe and becoming one with it in objectivity) shall free us all.

There is a trend in so-called "progressive" thought right now which rejects the notion of an objective reality outright.  Reality, it is supposed, is nothing more than a matrix of existential mirrors and prisms, a lattice of reflected and refracted consciousness totally without form or substance.  There may be some merit to such a profound hypothesis, but all-too-often the notion is misused to side-step much more relevant contemplations: ethical conduct, morality, and interpersonal responsibility.  The notion "there is no objective truth" is invoked to rationalize behaviour that is plainly wrong, such as cheating on one's partner, or accepting money from a married man with a young family in exchange for sexual favours. 

Ultimately, there is nothing incorrect or logically inconsistent in that line of reasoning.  Certainly there is nothing embedded within the nature of phenomenal existence which serves as a yardstick for human conduct.  However, this simple observation contains nothing profound, and certainly it has no bearing on the more immediate realm of subjective human experience, where our actions carry a qualifiable effect on the wellbeing of others.  It does not make sense to conflate ultimate reality with our subjective experience of reality, and it is appalling to suggest a false dichotomy between the two with the intent to diffuse whatever light is shone on one's own shameful behaviour. 

Take polyamory, for example.  Speaking generally and only from personal experience, proponents of this lifestyle proudly attest to an evolved sensibility, one which transcends "lower" or "negative" emotions like jealousy and attachment.  A value system of openness and humility is idealized, and has become the subject of talks and workshops at places like Burning Man, even expounded at lengths in books like The Ethical Slut.  However, it takes only a modicum of insight to notice that just below this tranquil surface of high-minded principles is a raging undercurrent of unconstrained hedonism, and unquenchable desirous thirsts swirling around the vortices of obsessive egotism.  Here too, an entirely correct, logically consistent value system is little more than the clothing donned by wolves whose mouths are salivating for succulent sheep.

Throughout human history, conservative thinking has been too narrow, too closed, too rigid, stifling novelty and impeding the advancement of humanity.  By the same, progressive thinking has at times been so open as to be unfocused, so liberal as to be decadent, so permissive as to breed a culture of self-worship and excess.  So much pain and confusion has come from this oscillation between these extremes thought modality, and it's for this reason that doubt is emerging as a secret virtue, for it is through doubt that we burn off irrelevancies and delusion until only a pure elixir remains: the truth.

Three things cannot be long hidden;
the sun;
the moon;
and the truth.

- Buddha


--------------------


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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18482125 - 06/27/13 11:27 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

What's with you and all this morality stuff all the time?  Are you still hurting after all these years?

What's so "profound" about your thinking on this subject?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Icelander]
    #18482197 - 06/27/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

>> What's with you and all this morality stuff all the time?

There are some disturbing trends gaining momentum in the world's subcultures, such that I feel compelled to scrutinize and comment on them.  Relativism is beginning to decouple from compassionate awareness, rapidly becoming entangled in hedonistic self-idolatry.

The phenomenon is one of my core contemplations, and something I am passionate about right now.  Just as people interested in astronomy tend to bring astronomy into their discussions, so too I tend to fold matters of morality and conduct into mine.


>> Are you still hurting after all these years?

I'm not sure what this refers to, but the answer is probably yes, even if what you have in mind comprises no part of my posting impetus as of late.


>> What's so "profound" about your thinking on this subject?

Don't let my flowery language mislead you into thinking that my posts are intended to convey something profound. 

The only reason I come here is to see if I can trick people into giving me really complimentary ratings about how wise and insightful I am.

:yeahthatsfunny: 


--------------------


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Edited by Ped (06/28/13 12:02 AM)

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18482656 - 06/28/13 03:52 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Fair enough. 

I don't really think things have changed much.  I think in Egypt and Rome and all the "great" civilizations, unconstrained hedonism was the norm if conditions offered it as an option.

IMO humanity has always been a wasteland for the most part.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Icelander]
    #18483984 - 06/28/13 01:53 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

>> IMO humanity has always been a wasteland for the most part.

There's plenty of wholly accurate, objective reasons to accept this observation.  Yet, I struggle with it, and remain hesitant to accept it myself, because there exists such a large number of people who recognize and are depressed by its apparent truth.  If it is the nature of humanity to generate a wasteland of indulgence and excess when conditions permit, then this ought not to trouble anyone, as it would feel perfectly natural all the time.  The mere fact that such a perspective troubles so many people suggests that humanity does carry other, as-yet unrealized potentials.  There is some hope there.


--------------------


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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18484019 - 06/28/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I think those potentials have always existed in nature and are displayed to some extent in even the most self indulgent individual. However the role of those potentials is minor and will not one day rule the organism imo.  The balance is already there and as balanced as it's going to get in our species for better or as you and I see it, worse. :shrug:

I've spent to much time observing myself and others and studying human psychology and history to believe otherwise. :sad:

And were a shift to take place I'd imagine the evolution of it would put it so far into some unknown future that you and I need not concern ourselves with it.  Because imo doing that is just another form of DA.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Icelander]
    #18484822 - 06/28/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

The universe is fractal in nature; every piece represents the whole. If there is potential in the universe it would serve then there is potential in humans as well, even if not dominating. Even if it probably never will.

The battle is over the choice to hope it seems, and that choice isn't affected by all the data in the world.

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Icelander]
    #18484993 - 06/28/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And were a shift to take place I'd imagine the evolution of it would put it so far into some unknown future that you and I need not concern ourselves with it.  Because imo doing that is just another form of DA.



:thumbup:

Don't worry, be happy.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Chat your fraff
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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #18485470 - 06/28/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I'm pretty much just waiting around for this:



--------------------


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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18485484 - 06/28/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think it's on the air anymore so you have a long wait. :lol:

Of course there's always reruns.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Icelander]
    #18485828 - 06/28/13 09:43 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I have a Trek clip for that too :smile:



--------------------


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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18486646 - 06/29/13 01:55 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> Objectivity is equivalent to truth, in my eyes. The truth (objective universe and becoming one with it in objectivity) shall free us all.

There is a trend in so-called "progressive" thought right now which rejects the notion of an objective reality outright.  Reality, it is supposed, is nothing more than a matrix of existential mirrors and prisms, a lattice of reflected and refracted consciousness totally without form or substance.  There may be some merit to such a profound hypothesis, but all-too-often the notion is misused to side-step much more relevant contemplations: ethical conduct, morality, and interpersonal responsibility.  The notion "there is no objective truth" is invoked to rationalize behaviour that is plainly wrong, such as cheating on one's partner, or accepting money from a married man with a young family in exchange for sexual favours. 

Ultimately, there is nothing incorrect or logically inconsistent in that line of reasoning.  Certainly there is nothing embedded within the nature of phenomenal existence which serves as a yardstick for human conduct.  However, this simple observation contains nothing profound, and certainly it has no bearing on the more immediate realm of subjective human experience, where our actions carry a qualifiable effect on the wellbeing of others.  It does not make sense to conflate ultimate reality with our subjective experience of reality, and it is appalling to suggest a false dichotomy between the two with the intent to diffuse whatever light is shone on one's own shameful behaviour. 

Take polyamory, for example.  Speaking generally and only from personal experience, proponents of this lifestyle proudly attest to an evolved sensibility, one which transcends "lower" or "negative" emotions like jealousy and attachment.  A value system of openness and humility is idealized, and has become the subject of talks and workshops at places like Burning Man, even expounded at lengths in books like The Ethical Slut.  However, it takes only a modicum of insight to notice that just below this tranquil surface of high-minded principles is a raging undercurrent of unconstrained hedonism, and unquenchable desirous thirsts swirling around the vortices of obsessive egotism.  Here too, an entirely correct, logically consistent value system is little more than the clothing donned by wolves whose mouths are salivating for succulent sheep.

Throughout human history, conservative thinking has been too narrow, too closed, too rigid, stifling novelty and impeding the advancement of humanity.  By the same, progressive thinking has at times been so open as to be unfocused, so liberal as to be decadent, so permissive as to breed a culture of self-worship and excess.  So much pain and confusion has come from this oscillation between these extremes thought modality, and it's for this reason that doubt is emerging as a secret virtue, for it is through doubt that we burn off irrelevancies and delusion until only a pure elixir remains: the truth.

Three things cannot be long hidden;
the sun;
the moon;
and the truth.

- Buddha



I had never heard of polyamory until you posted this, or the Ethical Slut..
Synchronisticaly met a chick last night that brought up this book/subject and it got me laid. :laugh:


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: hTx]
    #18486844 - 06/29/13 03:57 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

and I found a million dollars under my pillow. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: On Intelligence: Objectivity and Creativity [Re: Ped]
    #18486886 - 06/29/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

about that trend that claims the 'real reality' is supposed to be
Quote:

nothing more than a matrix of existential mirrors and prisms, a lattice of reflected and refracted consciousness totally without form or substance.




I look at that myth as being pushed by the New Age belief system.

I like Mark Passio's take on Natural Law. Natural Law is a law that is not writ by men, but is what it says. This means that if I go and poison your water which you and yours and other species need to live, because water is the very staple of life, then it doesn't matter what excuse I give, it is against natural law.

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