Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Offlinetheoysterman
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Galt's Gultch United Stat... Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Cannot get grain jars right, Help!
    #17118366 - 10/28/12 03:07 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

1st time poster long time lurker.

I just cannot seem to get my grain jars right about a 60% failure rate, Please help!

Only occasionally do I loose a jar to Trich or some random contaminate that is not my big concern as it is fairly rare. My big problem is I get in over half my jars where 20-40% or so of the grains turn dark or wet, eventually succumb to bacteria and if left the individual grains will turn black. The "wet" dark grains will not colonize, I get these stuck half colonized jars that eventually rot. Arugh!

The Details
For grain prep I take 30 cups of dry wheat berries, rinse well, and soak in a enamel pot (28quart?) for 24 hours. I also include a pot of coffee in the soak water (2 scoops of grounds/pot of coffee) After 24 hours I rinse the grains again, return to the pot cover grains with water and let sit for a few minutes with 50ml of Foxfarm H2O2 35%. Brew a fresh pot of coffee and include 1 cup of Gypsum. Bring to a boil and hold for 5-10 minutes. Strain and let grains sit for 30 min. I then spread the grains out on a newspaper covered table to surface dry the grains. Using a flour sifter I sprinkle a little gypsum on top of the grains.
My grains look great in my opinion at this point. Dry to the touch, yet moist inside, no burst kernels, and they dont stick together.

I then load into wide mouth 1 quart jars, filled about 1/2" to 3/4" lower than the shoulders of the jar. My lids are those white plastic wide mouth lids with a 3/16" hole drilled into the middle. I cover hole with Mircopore tape. Cover the lids in foil and run through my AA 75X for 1 hour to 90 min. (I run 12 at a time; 9 standing and 3 on their side; 13 will fit.) Allow the AA to cool, I have observed that some grains are dry and some are visibly wet after PCing. a light shake and a few hours later and the grains seem to come to a equilibrium of dry on the outside, moist on inside, and none stick together.

I grain to grain them at a 1:6 jar ratio, store in crates(12 to a crate) in a closet kept at a constant 68-70 F. in 3-7 days the jars will be healthy with dime to quarter sized spots of healthy myc spread throughout the jar. If i dont shake they wont cover the jar 100%, if i do often the grains turn "wet" either way the jars get "stuck"
Same problem, with a wide variety of myc, so I have ruled out genetics/type/strain.

Id love to hear peoples thoughts on my process.
Some of my own hypothesis's include:
Coffee in soak water too rich
H2O2 in soak water damaging cell walls enough that causes problem later, causing the weakened cells to be more susceptible to bacteria.
3/16" hole in top of jar lid not providing enough air exchange
Too high/too low CO2 in incubation closet. (I have varied this from no ventilation to 5-6 air exchanges/ hour)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKizzle
Misanthrope
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,866
Last seen: 21 days, 4 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17118415 - 10/28/12 03:18 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like too many endospores are surviving when you PC. Make sure you're giving at least the full 90 minutes from the time the PC reaches 15 psi.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTmethylM
Smear in the shale
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17118421 - 10/28/12 03:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

60% is utterly unacceptable.

Always do 90mins or more at 15psi. Never 60, I had issues with this same thing until I started doing 90+.

I have never used micropore tape, so I cannot say if thats allowing mold spores to enter your jars or not, but I've had a less than 1% contam rate using very tightly packed polyfill holes in my grain jars, and that 1% is most likely from contams in the inoculant.

All of your self hypothesis are not relevant, nothing to worry about there.

If trich is getting in your jar occasionally, there is only 3 ways:

Bad filter over your lid hole.

Inoculant. (You may want to change vendors, or explain to me how you get your syringes, or how you make them)

Sterilization error. Too little time, too little PSI, Not sterilizing syringe needle before inoculation, etc.



Other than that, great report, good detail. Now just work with us to figure this out, I know it can be very frustrating, but we are here to solve this. Any more detail you can add, especially in regards to your inoculation methods, Will help tremendously.


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Tmethyl (10/28/12 03:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCitric
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 4,490
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: Tmethyl]
    #17118450 - 10/28/12 03:24 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

24 hours is to long.  Over night is more then enough for soaking.  Longer soaks are actually detrimental as endospores germinate and reproduce more.

Ditch the coffee.  Ditch the h2o2.

Soak 12-16 hours max.  Simmer.  Drain.  PC for 90 minutes(Not 60 to 90.  Not 70 to 90.  90 to 90 minutes.

I'd also be using something other then just micropore tape.  At minimum I'd throw tyvek under your lid.


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshroomtomb
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/22/11
Posts: 21
Loc: N. California
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17118451 - 10/28/12 03:24 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The 'wet' jars sound like you simply have bacterial contamination. Even properly prepared jars will look exactly as you described with bacteria. Since this is contingent upon whether or not you shake, my guess is that your filter is the problem.

I ran into a similar issue when I first used filter jars with 'craft felt' filters.  I have to transport the jars after I sterilize, and I failed to cover the jars with foil during transport.  Despite the filters being effective for use in my closet, they weren't up to the task for transportation.  Afterward, I simply kept foil over them and they were fine.

From what I understand, you're only using micropore tape as a filtering material.  I don't think this is up to the task at hand.  I would recommend making filters out of polyfil, craft felt (which is just pressed polyfil), or actual rated filters.

It sounds like the tape is permitting bacteria that transfer into the grains when you shake.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheoysterman
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Galt's Gultch United Stat... Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: shroomtomb]
    #17119335 - 10/28/12 05:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks guys, im grain to grain in a still air box in a clean room.
always running is two hepa filters, a UVC light contraption, and a oust sprayer every 9 minutes.
Before doing anywork i wipe everything down, mop the floor with bleach solution, and lysol the place. I work in hair net and tyvek, and wear a respirator for the lysol. for grain to grains i wipe down with alcohol each jar. using a paper towel folded in such a way that i can wipe down 8 jars without ever using the same part of the towel twice. I line up 6 wiped down receiving jars in the still air box, a wiped down giving jar of only good looking grains. I then lysol the heck out of the still air box just before doing the transfers. Rinse and repeat.

Again contam like trich is rarely a problem, bacteria is my haunt.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheoysterman
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Galt's Gultch United Stat... Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: Citric]
    #17119397 - 10/28/12 05:59 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Will kill the coffee and h2o2 and do a shorter soak tomorrow. will insure the 90min. see what happens.

Lids - i have a million of these plastic lids with a 3/16" hole, would love to keep using them maybe an adaptation. suggestions?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKizzle
Misanthrope
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,866
Last seen: 21 days, 4 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17119412 - 10/28/12 06:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You don't wipe down the inside of the jars at all do you?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDynGBreeD
┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 3,639
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17119454 - 10/28/12 06:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I don't like to use coffee much, but when I do I dilute it a good bit.
Instead of just adding regular brewed coffee. And would never recommend
anyone to use H2o2 in the soak, and cannot say I've heard of it.

Also I've used Micropore tape for the GE hole and Ear Plugs for the inoculation
port. Both with 1/8th in holes. I usually double the tape over the holes. It's
not the best method or most recommended, but so far I haven't had a contaminated
grain jar yet.

There are lots of Tek's, here is one of my favorites.
How EvilMushroom666 Prepares Grain Spawn (Jars & Bags)


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleExiledmonkies
Peaceful Warrior
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 514
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17119484 - 10/28/12 06:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Follow their advice

A quick check you might want to do is order some sterilization indicator strips. Take a single jar and pack it halfway VERY tightly with grain. Put your strip in then finish packing the jar with grain. Place the jar in the center of the PC and cook for 90min at 15psi.

The strip will tell you if your pressure cooker is doing it's job or not.

If you are using a cheaper pressure cooker. Don't over pack it. I only run 6-7jars quart jars through my quality PC at a time and I don't lay any of them on their sides.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCitric
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 4,490
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17119562 - 10/28/12 06:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

theoysterman said:
always running is two hepa filters, a UVC light contraption, and a oust sprayer every 9 minutes.
Before doing anywork i wipe everything down, mop the floor with bleach solution, and lysol the place. I work in hair net and tyvek, and wear a respirator for the lysol. for grain to grains i wipe down with alcohol each jar. using a paper towel folded in such a way that i can wipe down 8 jars without ever using the same part of the towel twice. I line up 6 wiped down receiving jars in the still air box, a wiped down giving jar of only good looking grains. I then lysol the heck out of the still air box just before doing the transfers. Rinse and repeat.




This is some serious over kill.  I have never used a mask, never changed my cloths, never showered to inoculate.  I bought lysol and used it once on my first grow, that was it.

I mean if you want to go through all of that, then so be it, it sure as hell cant hurt other then killing time, and materials to do all of this.

I would focus on your prep and your filter.  If you want to use tape, double it up.  I understand you have a ton of lids.  I would use those, that's fine.  I would drill another hole and fill it with RTV so you don't have to pierce through your GE hole at all.  12 hour soak, 90 minute PC, proper filter.  Should see some different results.

If not.  Is this the same bag of wheat berries?  Personally I've never used them, but when I switched to Rye I bought a 50 lb bag, and no matter what I did or how I did it, they contaminated with bacteria.  I was dumb founded.  It was the Rye itself.  Could just be a bad batch with a fuck ton of endospores and no matter what you do it will result in the same.

Now if these are multiple different bags and same results.  I would blame user error.


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheoysterman
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Galt's Gultch United Stat... Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: Kizzle]
    #17119621 - 10/28/12 06:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

:laugh:

No, I wipe them down with a liberally soaked alcohol soaked paper towel.
place in still air box, loosen lid, repeat 5 more times, then lysol the box. the lids are open briefly one at a time only to receive inoculated grains.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleExiledmonkies
Peaceful Warrior
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 514
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17119662 - 10/28/12 06:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Don't be spraying lysol right before a g2g transfer inside your glvoebox. O-o It can get inside your jars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKizzle
Misanthrope
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,866
Last seen: 21 days, 4 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #17119694 - 10/28/12 06:39 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Alright I didn't think you would but you never know :lol:

I really think it's sterilization problem, something I dealt with quite a bit when my PC stopped maintaining pressure :shakefist: Not to say there aren't other possible sources of the bacteria but what you described it exactly what happens.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheoysterman
Stranger
Male
Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Galt's Gultch United Stat... Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: Kizzle]
    #17119762 - 10/28/12 06:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I use one of those AA 75X it actually gets to 17psi, Ill try some different filter methods.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMycoBrainz
Mycotic
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 616
Loc: West Coast
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #21525093 - 04/09/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I've always cooked my grain then let it dry, exploded grains and all and had no issues. I recently wasted about 15 lbs of grain doing the soak method. After soaking my grains(24hrs)I rinsed and noticed they smelled like vinegar, not one knocked up. Went back to cooking and drying then PC and bam gtg. Took 1.5 weeks from spore injection to fully colonize. This time I used Wheat, barley and Millet. The Mycelium loved it.


--------------------
:stoned:


PFC x Creeper


Lets Get Stoned

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYaMoonSun
The Double Standard


Registered: 10/23/14
Posts: 3,967
Loc: NY
Last seen: 7 months, 8 days
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: MycoBrainz]
    #21525099 - 04/09/15 05:05 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

:facepalm3:

I don't know if there's a rule that says you can't bump old posts, but come on dude..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePinPornProducer
Buy the ticket, take the ride
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/23/14
Posts: 9,981
Loc: Rocky Point R.I Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: YaMoonSun]
    #21525141 - 04/09/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I soak for about 14-16 hours, quick rinse and strain, dump the grain into a big pot, fill with water about an inch over the grains, simmer for about 10 min until they are firm outside but chewy inside. Remove from heat, drain hot water and fill with cold water to cool the grains, strain until barely any water drips out and load jars. I never dry them because I get the hydration just right so that any extra moisture left on the grains enter the grain during the 90 min pc cycle. Remove jars after pcing give em some random shakes so they don't stick

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCitric
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 4,490
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Cannot get grain jars right, Help! [Re: theoysterman]
    #21540022 - 04/09/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Quote:

MycoBrainz said:
I've always cooked my grain then let it dry, exploded grains and all and had no issues. I recently wasted about 15 lbs of grain doing the soak method. After soaking my grains(24hrs)I rinsed and noticed they smelled like vinegar, not one knocked up. Went back to cooking and drying then PC and bam gtg. Took 1.5 weeks from spore injection to fully colonize. This time I used Wheat, barley and Millet. The Mycelium loved it.




You shouldn't soak your grains for so long, there's the issue.

This thread is over two years old.  If the OP hasn't figured it out by now he should take up knitting.  Please don't bump old post, tyvm good night.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* 1/2 gal rye grain jars lehder 1,730 4 02/10/03 07:30 PM
by lehder
* Grain jars not PCd wikedanjel 1,076 5 01/16/03 07:39 AM
by Azmodeus
* When to case grain jars shianggu 3,229 1 04/30/02 07:23 AM
by humplok4201
* whole grain jars last?.................... Shadowfoot 1,451 1 10/29/02 04:17 PM
by SixTango
* Foamy yellow liquid in Rye Grain jar Visigoth 3,266 3 10/14/02 08:45 AM
by MAIA
* First Time Grower: Day 16 : Grain Jar Transfer Questions, 'Howmidoin?' Gordon Shumway 1,054 8 05/07/21 05:39 PM
by Gordon Shumway
* Finished Grain jars, having a few questions... wikedanjel 1,692 2 01/17/03 05:27 AM
by debianlinux
* were to get hay+grain+jars? Told 683 4 03/16/03 08:51 AM
by Told

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
3,849 topic views. 34 members, 135 guests and 161 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 12 queries.