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Offlinehoodbran
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Jungian Analysts:
    #16858515 - 09/16/12 07:15 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Does this sound Jungian to you?

"Empower people to recognise, develop and make the most of their talents and resources in order to become experts in their own self-care and do the things they want to do in life."


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Not all drugs are good, Some are great.




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OfflineClosedEyeCigarette
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: hoodbran]
    #16858531 - 09/16/12 07:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Need help in Psych 101?:ahahaha:

An yes. Jung was all about inward thinking and self empowerment which is why a lot of people labeled him a mystic.


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Just when you think you're happy
I come around
I was meant to be
A punishment to you
A thorn in your side
A cancer eating through
I twist reality
And make it hard to bear
I am the only thing left
When love isn't there

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: ClosedEyeCigarette]
    #16858540 - 09/16/12 07:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"You're still a Jung man, baby..."


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16858555 - 09/16/12 07:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Young maybe, but it's still a jungle out there. :hehehe:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: Diploid]
    #16858670 - 09/16/12 07:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You're in a mood today. :pirate:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: hoodbran]
    #16858779 - 09/16/12 08:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds more like Rogerian Person-centered therapy to me or more generally Positive Psychology.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: hoodbran]
    #16859114 - 09/16/12 08:58 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hoodbran said:
Does this sound Jungian to you?

"Empower people to recognise, develop and make the most of their talents and resources in order to become experts in their own self-care and do the things they want to do in life."





Yes.

Realizing your True Potential in life is important. 

It is a horrible waste to see an engineer bagging groceries.  Now, when he was a teenager, not so much.

Your psyche has to be mended before you can be a useful member of society.

Too many damaged psyches trying to help other damaged psyches.  That doesn't work one bit at all.

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Offlinehoodbran
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16860568 - 09/17/12 02:31 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Cheers for the replies!

Im starting a delivery model for some people soon and this is one of the basic tenets of the program, I was curious whether Jung had a little revival..


--------------------
Not all drugs are good, Some are great.




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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: hoodbran]
    #16862143 - 09/17/12 12:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hoodbran said:
Does this sound Jungian to you?

"Empower people to recognise, develop and make the most of their talents and resources in order to become experts in their own self-care and do the things they want to do in life."




Not Jungian at all. Doing "the things they want to do in life" is all about ego development, not Individuation which aims at the realization of the Self. Empowerment sounds more like a goal of Community Psychology, or an off-shoot of the Adlerian school (which also contributed to the Existential Psychologies, such as Frankl's Logotherapy). The realization of the Self in Analytical Psychology is an introverted affair, and has to do with the archetype of the Wise Old [Wo]Man, which predominates in later life.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16863850 - 09/17/12 05:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Realization of Self is a reference returning to the very first moments of sentience.  "Ego Death" is actually quite inaccurate because in the first moments of sentience the Self is not yet cognizant of Ego.  After awareness of Self comes awareness of Ego.

Thus Self Actualization is Enlightenment.  This can be precipitated through deep meditation and or psychedelic substances.  The more often you go back to that first experience, the better, reason being is that you essentially relearn every experience, thus reinforcing lesson already learned.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16867039 - 09/18/12 05:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Realization of Self is a reference returning to the very first moments of sentience.  "Ego Death" is actually quite inaccurate because in the first moments of sentience the Self is not yet cognizant of Ego.  After awareness of Self comes awareness of Ego.


Well, yes and no. The neonate is unaware of separateness from its mother for a good 6 months (see Louise Kaplan's Oneness and Separateness for a great description). Baby bites blanket, and everything else in the Oral Stage. One day, baby bites thumb and gets a jolt of pain. Hmm, thumb is different than blanket. Gradually, the Sensori-Motor Stage develops a primitive sense of ego - embodied ego, with skin as its boundary. The ego structure begins to differentiate from "The Great Round," the extended womb of baby's universe, which is still essentially unconscious.

Jung was guilty of what Ken Wilber famously called the "Pre-Trans Fallacy." He uncritically equates primal unconsciousness in the Self with the end of human development - awareness of the Self. The onesness of the neonate is an unconscious identification with the mother - physical and archetypal (psychic). It is true that Jungians following Jung (like Edward Edinger in Ego and Archetype), clarify the development of an "ego-Self axis" which illustrates the paradox of 'oneness and separateness' in biblical myths (e.g., the biblical creation stories, the relationship of Jesus to the Father which is ego to Self respectively). But, our development is NOT a return to the Garden of Eden, which is sometimes depicted in art as a circular (i.e., mandalic) symbol of "The Great Round," or The Great Mother. Our development needs to pass from unconsciousness to the consciousness of the ego to superconsciousness of the Self. Superconsciousness is notably missing in Jung, which is probably why he didn't visit the great yogi Ramana Maharshi while in India, dismissing him with the words, "I know the type." Sri Ramana must have intimidated CGJ, and would have shot holes through his theory of the Self. Best to avoid him.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinehoodbran
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16867048 - 09/18/12 05:43 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

hoodbran said:
Does this sound Jungian to you?

"Empower people to recognise, develop and make the most of their talents and resources in order to become experts in their own self-care and do the things they want to do in life."




Not Jungian at all. Doing "the things they want to do in life" is all about ego development, not Individuation which aims at the realization of the Self. Empowerment sounds more like a goal of Community Psychology, or an off-shoot of the Adlerian school (which also contributed to the Existential Psychologies, such as Frankl's Logotherapy). The realization of the Self in Analytical Psychology is an introverted affair, and has to do with the archetype of the Wise Old [Wo]Man, which predominates in later life.




Thanks, I was hoping you'd reply.  In FL, have you heard of recovery colleges? - A co-facilitation model with experts from both sides of mental health? One with lived experience, and the other theorist/clinical practice experience.  It seems to be a large US thing but it's becoming increasingly popular here in the UK where XBX's (experts by experience) give more in terms of illness education than a professional expert can ever do.. I am able to self disclose to the people I work with but my colleagues, bound by professional constraints (health professions council etc) cannot.  Evidence coming out of three years of doing RCs suggest its as effective as CBT.  The model focuses on education, not treatment, helping others with similar problems to become experts in their own recovery. What are your thoughts on it?  Does Jung's wounded healer, heal more than someone with shallow experience?


--------------------
Not all drugs are good, Some are great.




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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16961692 - 10/03/12 08:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

When someone flashes back to their first moment of sentience they are only aware of Self.  Then Egoic awareness develops. The Ego is like a sphere that surrounds or envelops Self.

That is why many people find tripping incredibly hard disconcerting, it is because they momentarily lose awareness of Ego.  Ego is still there, they were just going back to their first Moment.

It is disorienting because that first Moment and the present event are occupying the same experience. 

I think it is useful because the Individual also reexamines all of their choices from that point onward.  It reinforces their development of Character Indeed.

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OfflineJiminy
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16963058 - 10/04/12 12:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Well said Mr. Al.


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Love sourdough like I do? Check out my sourdough starter trade thread.

Always on the lookout for new varieties of heirloom beets, carrots, radish, beans and soybeans.

My trade list.

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Offlineblingbling
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: Jiminy]
    #16963649 - 10/04/12 05:16 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

one of things i hate about psychoanalyses is that it over generalizes. most of the stuff written in this thread seems to me more of a representation of the thoughts and feelings of the author rather than any lived experience of another individual. i think there are some great things we can take from psychoanalyses but most of the stuff i've seen at the shroomery really disappoints me :sorry:


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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: blingbling]
    #16967379 - 10/04/12 06:39 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
one of things i hate about psychoanalyses is that it over generalizes. most of the stuff written in this thread seems to me more of a representation of the thoughts and feelings of the author rather than any lived experience of another individual. i think there are some great things we can take from psychoanalyses but most of the stuff i've seen at the shroomery really disappoints me :sorry:





I would say that what I said before shows you exactly why people appear extremely disorientated when they are tripping balls.

"Ego death" is not real, it is just flashing back to the first moments when a Created Being became initially Self Aware but was not yet aware of Ego.

Mushrooms can change perception of time, hence the phrase "mushroom time loop", thus extending the experiential time available to experience those first moments of Self Awareness before the Egoic Perception.


Even a ridiculous fortune cookie phrase should not disappoint the truly perceptive.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: hoodbran]
    #16967775 - 10/04/12 07:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The model focuses on education, not treatment, helping others with similar problems to become experts in their own recovery. What are your thoughts on it?  Does Jung's wounded healer, heal more than someone with shallow experience?

My own mental health discipline, counseling, is grounded in an educational model, not the medical model, so I'm partial theoretical bases that are similarly derived. Educational models tend to see clients as essentially healthy being who are experiencing, sometimes profound, 'obstacles' in life. The medical model adhered to by psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers is grounded in the medical model which tends to see patients,, in terms of their diagnosed pathologies (i.e., patients ARE schizophrenics, Bi-polars, etc.).

Jung had bouts with mental illness, not to mention serious moral flaws. "Shallow experience" is inexperience, and it is associated with usually youth. It is difficult to live several decades and not receive injuries. Relatively few individuals suffer such pain in their youth that they start off as being effective healers. Pain, especially profound pain, requires time to be integrated, and while integration is a prerequisite for translation into general principles, and the instructional expression of that integration as a therapeutic intervention for others. Skill requires even more time and practice. Being a "wounded healer" means acquiring a depth of empathy that derives from one's personal pain along with the realization of the universality of human suffering, just as Buddha taught. This realization would be communicated to the client/patient. A skilled but privileged surgeon may qualify  as 'expert,' at the top of his/her field, but have piss-poor bedside manner, be arrogant and demonstrate zero empathy despite his/her surgical skills. Such a highly paid expert would be a glorified 'technician,' not a "wounded healer."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlineblingbling
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16967807 - 10/04/12 07:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

you should check out lacan's mirror stage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_stage

i think it would be right up your alley.

as for the reason why people get anxious when they are tripping, i think there are lots of reasons for that. for example, i have become very anxious while tripping simply because i was tripping with a very depressed person. i don't think it had anything to do with a regression to a pre-egoic state.

imo we shouldn't take the id, ego or super-ego too seriously. they are just words that discribe different kinds of agency. i think much of psychoanalyses was an opening up of the western world to ideas about the nature of self that it couldn't really handle. we came up with a quasiscientific analyses of the self in order to deal with the reality of our situation. the reality being that we are not self sufficient automotrons and that if there is something wrong with an individual it is not just the individuals fault but also perhaps the fault of others and society in general.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: blingbling]
    #16967842 - 10/04/12 07:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

A Heroic Dose is required for such a flashback to first moments of Self Awareness...


Human beings are categorically more sentient than other observed creatures.  Thus, I would be inclined to state that personal responsibility is something that an Enlightened viewpoint would take seriously.

It is the UnEnlightened who are easily influenced by the immoral aspects of human civilization.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Jungian Analysts: [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16967863 - 10/04/12 07:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Markos, I find this "wounded healer" discussion to be quite interesting.

Do you suppose you might see a correlation between the "wounded healer" and the Yeshua mentioned in Early Christianity?

Would you say that the "wounded healer" is an archetype in the sense that it appears to have a universal commonality in the human psyche?

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