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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' * 1
    #16116694 - 04/20/12 03:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I have listened to a lot of his arguments and I think I see a pattern that is something like this: 

1) Have either the media or himself (or minions/party)  set up an idea (i.e. Republicans want to limit birth control) 
 
The start of that was an innocent question asked of Romney I believe, by george stephenapolis several months ago.

2)  From the original position, find other specious examples or even misrepresent what is said... Rush Limbaugh, et. al

3) Republican responses are then raked over the coal for the most tedious example of saying something that is 'anti-birth control

4)  this goes on and on and the end effect becomes:: Multiple 'Strawmen' are used to create an illusion of a certain idea being true.  Just one of the original strawmen couldn't force the issue, but with 5 or 6 strawmen standing together, it creates an overall (dishonest) impression of a position that is then generalized to the presidential candidate and the party:  i.e. The Original Idea is now:  REPULICANS WANT TO TAKE AWAY WOMEN'S RIGHTs.

This statement is now continuously being parroted by media, Democrats, and supporters. 

It is effective, but very fallacious in its design.  I call this the 'Method of Cascading Strawmen' in want of another word.  Am I right, in general, about this POLITICAL strategy?

Before anyone goes howling about "WOMEN"S RIGHTS..>OBAMA...BLAH BLAH..."  I'm not discussing the issue as much as I'm discussing the what I see is a really tacky and dishonest METHOD used to force the position.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Posts: 18,686
Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: starfire_xes]
    #16116737 - 04/20/12 03:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

:crankey: HATE when people do this!!!

happens all the time during in-class debates.


It's like they will make several points loosely related to the topic at hand and then everyone jizzes over their argument because they agree with everything that was said.  BUT THEY MISS THE ACTUAL POINT OF THE ARGUMENT  and what they said had little relevance to the issue at hand


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InvisibleShill
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: NWlight]
    #16117441 - 04/20/12 07:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If they have authority over women the world wouldn't have so many crack babies


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The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.

A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.

If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.

"You throw the sand against the wind
And the wind blows it back again."
- William Blake

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Shill]
    #16118160 - 04/20/12 09:58 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

cascading strawmen is the domocrat party and supporter way!

they are all about strawmen and hasteful, reactionary short sightedness.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Shill]
    #16118171 - 04/20/12 10:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


1) Have either the media or himself (or minions/party)  set up an idea (i.e. Republicans want to limit birth control)

The start of that was an innocent question asked of Romney I believe, by george stephenapolis several months ago.




If it polls well then they run with it. However, if it blows up in their face then they have plausible deny-ability. A perfect example of the latter is this whole "Ann Romney has never worked a day in her life" controversy. They wanted her to say that, make no mistake about it, it just didn't work out so they distanced themselves.

They are really good at this.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: setb]
    #16118300 - 04/20/12 10:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

if real straw men were used, I would hope someone would be impeached. No politician should lie, lying should be banned from a politician it's bad enough they can order murder and not release facts about it. If the definition of a straw man has 'fallacy' in it then a straw man should be a reason to remove a politician from office


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #16118903 - 04/21/12 01:49 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

It is just that, for example, saying "Ann Romney has never worked..." and then transferring that to "Romney isn't acceptable as presidnet..." That is totally sick thinking.....and this is the way the democrats work...24?7.  To BELIEVE the democrat message is probably one of the biggest signs of Ignorant, brainwashed belief there is.


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InvisibleShill
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: starfire_xes]
    #16119322 - 04/21/12 07:52 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Why the hell do u guys make such a big deal of irrelevant shit.


Just don't listen to the talking head hurr durr


--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.

A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.

If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.

"You throw the sand against the wind
And the wind blows it back again."
- William Blake

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: starfire_xes]
    #16119371 - 04/21/12 08:26 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Look man what gets people to the polls is not facts but emotions.

If either campaign used only facts and logical arguments they'd be ceding the election to the other side.



People seem consistently unable to see this in their own party, and thats one of the saddest things about politics in my opinion. And it goes back a long way, I read some of the history of the presidential campaigns Lincoln ran in and it was a real eye opener.

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InvisibleShill
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Freedom]
    #16119771 - 04/21/12 11:05 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Look man what gets people to the polls is not facts but emotions.

If either campaign used only facts and logical arguments they'd be ceding the election to the other side.



People seem consistently unable to see this in their own party, and thats one of the saddest things about politics in my opinion. And it goes back a long way, I read some of the history of the presidential campaigns Lincoln ran in and it was a real eye opener.




--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.

A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.

If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.

"You throw the sand against the wind
And the wind blows it back again."
- William Blake

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InvisibleNWlight
Just look


Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 18,686
Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Shill]
    #16120518 - 04/21/12 02:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shill said:
Why the hell do u guys make such a big deal of irrelevant shit.


Just don't listen to the talking head hurr durr



Because it's not irrelevant.  Our president is the leader of the free world


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:wizard::deemsters:

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: starfire_xes]
    #16120526 - 04/21/12 02:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It is just that, for example, saying "Ann Romney has never worked..." and then transferring that to "Romney isn't acceptable as presidnet..." That is totally sick thinking.....and this is the way the democrats work...24?7.  To BELIEVE the democrat message is probably one of the biggest signs of Ignorant, brainwashed belief there is.




in that case it isn't straight lying, it's not illegal. A straw man is just a way to derive a direct conclusion without presenting proper facts. But a straw man can easily be conclusified if no evidence is presented that the evidence in the argument isn't real in it's entirety


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: NWlight]
    #16120545 - 04/21/12 02:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NWlight said:
Quote:

Shill said:
Why the hell do u guys make such a big deal of irrelevant shit.


Just don't listen to the talking head hurr durr



Because it's not irrelevant.  Our president is the leader of the free world




oh man it's so irrelevant. The decisions he makes don't effect americans at all. Like when a man who pays for his family with his crap $7.00 an hour job loses his job, and gets unemployment for a year. But then a year later wasn't employed the previous year and so loses unemployment. Is it believable that a person could really not find work for a whole year, even for a week? Wonder who would believe that garbage, those are just lazy people who aren't willing to drive 50 miles in all directions to apply at coffee bars inside restaurant gas stops to get a job they really really need.

And why should people be qualified for a loan to start their own business, when there are so many other businesses to provide jobs. I mean how do you think that other coffee shop exists? Someone gave him a loan? Ridiculous. And what does the president have to do with any of this?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: imachavel]
    #16120571 - 04/21/12 02:54 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

oh man it's so irrelevant. The decisions he makes don't effect americans at all




what planet are you from, dude?  The president is in charge of the executive branch of the federal government.

edit: I agree to an extent about the laziness thing.  When people tell me they haven't been able to find a job I ask them if they've watched any TV in the last month.  Invariably the answer is yes and my point is proven.

fuckers need to watch the movie "pursuit of happiness" before they complain


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:wizard::deemsters:

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: starfire_xes]
    #16151310 - 04/28/12 01:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
...with 5 or 6 strawmen standing together, it creates an overall (dishonest) impression of a position that is then generalized to the presidential candidate and the party:  i.e. The Original Idea is now:  REPULICANS WANT TO TAKE AWAY WOMEN'S RIGHTs.

This statement is now continuously being parroted by media, Democrats, and supporters. 

It is effective, but very fallacious in its design.  I call this the 'Method of Cascading Strawmen' in want of another word.  Am I right, in general, about this POLITICAL strategy?




As you stated, limiting birth control is one of "5 or 6" ways Republicans want to take away women's rights.  Others include:

1. Stop funding abortions
2. Cut food aid to low income mothers
3. Reduce preschool funding
4. Cut Planned Parenthood funding
5. Eliminate funding for family planning

If you have a list of things Republicans stand for that show they actually support women's rights, then I might agree with your premise.  Do you have ANYTHING to show Republicans support women's rights?  If not, then I don't think these are strawmen.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16151552 - 04/28/12 02:45 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There is no such thing as womens rights.

quote were the constitution mentions any type of womens rights.

you cant because it doesnt.

there are only individual rights.

"womens rights" is sexist, you typical hypocrite liberal.

fiscal conservatives want to cut EVERYTHING. 

focusing on only womens issues is, once again, sexist.

some people also believe unborn children have the right to life as outlined in the constitution.

i used to be for abortion when i used to be an irresponsable, selfish twit.

you shouldnt be able to murder an unborn person just because you are permiscuous and irresponsable, that unborn person has a right to life according to the constitution.

and many of those lives snuffed out were little girls.

what about their "womens rights?"


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16151581 - 04/28/12 02:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
...with 5 or 6 strawmen standing together, it creates an overall (dishonest) impression of a position that is then generalized to the presidential candidate and the party:  i.e. The Original Idea is now:  REPULICANS WANT TO TAKE AWAY WOMEN'S RIGHTs.

This statement is now continuously being parroted by media, Democrats, and supporters. 

It is effective, but very fallacious in its design.  I call this the 'Method of Cascading Strawmen' in want of another word.  Am I right, in general, about this POLITICAL strategy?




As you stated, limiting birth control is one of "5 or 6" ways Republicans want to take away women's rights.  Others include:

1. Stop funding abortionsGood
2. Cut food aid to low income mothersNot in evidence
3. Reduce preschool fundingGood
4. Cut Planned Parenthood fundingExtra Good
5. Eliminate funding for family planningGood

If you have a list of things Republicans stand for that show they actually support women's rights, then I might agree with your premise.  Do you have ANYTHING to show Republicans support women's rights?  If not, then I don't think these are strawmen.




What about the rights of responsible women not to support irresponsible women.  This isn't about women's rights any more than it is about my right to buy a Ferrari.  I have the right to buy a Ferrari with my own money.  They have the right to buy family planning and abortion and whatever the fuck else they want with their own money.  Their rights end at my bank account.  The real straw man is that I am somehow impinging on someone's "rights" if I don't buy them something.  I didn't buy you dinner.  Does that mean I deprived you of your right to eat?


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Invisiblesetb
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Posts: 2,580
Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Shins]
    #16151602 - 04/28/12 02:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
There is no such thing as womens rights.

quote were the constitution mentions any type of womens rights.

you cant because it doesnt.

there are only individual rights.

"womens rights" is sexist, you typical hypocrite liberal.

fiscal conservatives want to cut EVERYTHING. 

focusing on only womens issues is, once again, sexist.

some people also believe unborn children have the right to life as outlined in the constitution.

i used to be for abortion when i used to be an irresponsable, selfish twit.

you shouldnt be able to murder an unborn person just because you are permiscuous and irresponsable, that unborn person has a right to life according to the constitution.

and many of those lives snuffed out were little girls.

what about their "womens rights?"




This is what liberals do: they split everyone up into groups based on their sex, race, national origin, sexual orientation, class, etc. Liberals convince people belonging to these groups that they are victims of some oppressor and that is why they can't succeed in life.

It is BS and all it does is dispirit people and take away their humanity/self respect. I want my political candidate to have one message for everybody. I want my political candidate to have a positive, uplifting, and inspiring message- none of this dispiriting and demeaning crap libs try to push.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Shins]
    #16151642 - 04/28/12 03:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

that unborn person has a right to life according to the constitution.

I think we should ask the unborn if they want life before going forward on this.  Just to be fair.  I certainly didn't and I would know.  I was forced to be born by selfish ignorant religious nuts. They happened to be my parents. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
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Re: Is One of Obama's Strategic Method's to build 'Cascading Strawmen' [Re: Icelander]
    #16152358 - 04/28/12 06:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Let's take a single "women's rights" issue--equal pay for equal work.  Why is a liberal a sexist and a hypocrite for believing women should get promotions and pay equal to men based on equal quality and amount of work?  By recognizing and remedying an unfair practice that really negatively impacted women (some nasty employers were cheating people like Lily Ledbetter), liberals did not divide society and pit different people against each other, they helped women to be treated fairly.  There's nothing wrong or divisive or hateful about the Lily Ledbetter Act.  Before this act, a company could discriminate against a woman based on her sex for years without her knowledge then only suffer a minor penalty based on the statute of limitations--the financial incentive was to keep on discriminating.  Liberals helped fix that for women.  President Obama helped women by signing that act into law.  So, will you give liberals and President Obama that much credit, or do you hate them as a group no matter what the issue?


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