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 schnauzer
Skeptic
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 trayvon martin shooting 
#15972563 - 03/20/12 04:23 PM (12 years, 29 days ago) |
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longtime lurker, here. I didn't see any posts here about the shooting in FL, so thought I'd get one started. Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this. This really pisses me off. There are a lot of angles about this event to discuss--gun rights, police incompetence, race tension, etc.
I'm all for owning a gun, but this "stand your ground law" in FL seems to be used as a spear rather than a shield in this case. You can basically mug someone (even a child), and if they try to protect themselves, you can shoot them. This is a problem, right?
This George Zimmerman guy is going to be lynched if he isn't arrested soon.
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 memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer] 2
#15972663 - 03/20/12 04:49 PM (12 years, 29 days ago) |
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I don't think the law is the problem. I think it's rediculous to have the legal requirement to first retreat as far as you possibly can before you can confront an intruder with lethal force in your own home.
Sure, shit like this happens - but i don't think it's the law that caused this event.
P.S. George Zimmerman is hispanic, per his father 
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer] 1
#15972711 - 03/20/12 05:02 PM (12 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
schnauzer said:
longtime lurker, here. I didn't see any posts here about the shooting in FL, so thought I'd get one started. Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this. This really pisses me off. There are a lot of angles about this event to discuss--gun rights, police incompetence, race tension, etc.
I'm all for owning a gun, but this "stand your ground law" in FL seems to be used as a spear rather than a shield in this case. You can basically mug someone (even a child), and if they try to protect themselves, you can shoot them. This is a problem, right?
This George Zimmerman guy is going to be lynched if he isn't arrested soon.
You have some inside information to share? You were there?
Pray tell.
As for the "stand your ground" law, it's a good one and I'm pleased to see so many states passing them.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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schnauzer
Skeptic
Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 16
Loc: The Woods, U.S.A.
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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By all accounts, Zimmerman was driving around the neighborhood as Martin was either walking or running back home from the 7-11. At some point Zimmerman left the vehicle to confront Martin.
One of them initiated physical contact. This is where the facts will vary, but I don't think it matters who started the fight because when you follow someone in a car, get out of your car, and question them, these are all actions leading up to some type of desired confrontation. It was reasonable for 17 yo kid to feel threatened under these circumstances.
This law isn't meant to encourage confrontations, it is supposed to enable law abiding citizens to go about their business with some degree of peace of mind as to their personal safety.
The law in most states is that if someone enters your home, and you reasonably believe they are there to do harm, you can use deadly force, the "castle doctrine". The "stand your ground" law expands your ability to use defensive deadly force to any location, not just your home.
This Trayvon Martin case seems no different than a bar fight. George Zimmerman could go to a bar, pick a fight with someone who could clearly kick his ass, and once he lays into him, Zimmerman can pull out his concealed weapon, and shoot his ass dead. Totally legal in FL to do that if you apply the logic the police seemingly are using in the present case, regardless of who sought out the confrontation.
Also, if Zimmerman didn't like people of a certain race, he could start fights with people of that race, and if he was getting his ass kicked, he could pull out a gun and shoot their ass dead. Its only illegal if he targets a protected class--it becomes a hate crime because his intent was to ultimately kill a person of that race.
My opinion is that Martin was not targeted because he was black, but because he was not a regular member of the community--he was just visiting his father for the weekend or something. I could be wrong--maybe Zimmerman is a racist.
If the law isn't the problem, how does FL prevent events like this one from happening in the future? Or is it acceptable for a certain number of children to be gunned down by people who follow them home from the buss stop or convenience store?
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saintphotios
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15975278 - 03/21/12 07:24 AM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Yeah I'm all for 2nd amendment rights and I'm all for 'stand your ground' laws. But I can't think of any reasonable argument for not considering this murder.
Zimmerman was even told by dispatchers not to pursue Martin. He had no legal reason nor authority to do so. Under the circumstances it seems far more likely that Martin was the one defending himself. The only eyewitness testimony says that a man with a white shirt was on top of someone else. Zimmerman was wearing a white shirt. And if you're on top of someone, and you're carrying a firearm -- it ain't self-defense. By voluntarily entering a close-quarters situation, you effectively eliminate any self-defensive advantage a gun provides. I don't normally like the race card. But I genuinely don't believe if Martin was a white adult we'd be having this conversation... Zimmerman would be fucked.
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qman
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There might be more to the story, the DA has not charged him for anything yet, that does not mean he will not in the future.
One would think that there has been a crime committed here, I say give it a little more time, they may be trying to build a solid case here, or there is no evidence of a criminal act.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean
Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: qman]
#15975942 - 03/21/12 11:03 AM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Right, except for stalking, engaging, and then shooting an unarmed person. Dude's going to stand trial for murder. The fact that the victim was on the phone talking about how he was being stalked seems like evidence enough. They will have over 1 million signatures on a petition to make sure that happens by the end of the week.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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What's the deal with your sig yo?
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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qman
Stranger
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said:
Right, except for stalking, engaging, and then shooting an unarmed person. Dude's going to stand trial for murder. The fact that the victim was on the phone talking about how he was being stalked seems like evidence enough. They will have over 1 million signatures on a petition to make sure that happens by the end of the week.
Petitions might mean little in this case, and we don't know the facts yet. I agree, it seems from the "news" we have heard that this is a slam dunk case, but charges have not been even filed, there may be facts we don't know about.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean
Registered: 02/17/12
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
What's the deal with your sig yo?
Gravity waves, I am a whale after all.
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Shill
♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋
Registered: 11/23/11
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15976547 - 03/21/12 01:47 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
schnauzer said:
longtime lurker, here. I didn't see any posts here about the shooting in FL, so thought I'd get one started. Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this. This really pisses me off. There are a lot of angles about this event to discuss--gun rights, police incompetence, race tension, etc.
I'm all for owning a gun, but this "stand your ground law" in FL seems to be used as a spear rather than a shield in this case. You can basically mug someone (even a child), and if they try to protect themselves, you can shoot them. This is a problem, right?
This George Zimmerman guy is going to be lynched if he isn't arrested soon.
Think of it like a dual; similar to back in the day... Whoever shoots first and most accurate.
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The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.
A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.
If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.
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And the wind blows it back again."
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
What's the deal with your sig yo?
Gravity waves, I am a whale after all.
Looks like an illustration of phase vs group velocity.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer] 3
#15977606 - 03/21/12 05:40 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this.
This is probably not gonna be a very popular response, but here's my take.
First on the Stand Your Ground law. I live in Florida, not too far from where this happened. I also hold a concealed weapon permit. I don't usually carry in my day to day, but when I go camping in the Everglades or kayaking in the Ten-thousand Islands wilderness area west of the Florida Keys, I pack a weapon because I'll be alone and far from help. If someone out there far from civilization comes at me with a machete or gun, I don't think I should have to turn my back to them and run, giving them an advantage, then finally meet force with force only when the attacker is right on me. So I agree with the law as it stands. If someone comes at me, they'll get a bullet as fast as I can pull the trigger. I'm not running.
As to this particular killing, it reads like a witch hunt. Almost everything I've read has already tried and convicted Zimmerman in the court of popular opinion even though all the evidence isn't in yet and the investigation is still underway. I even read today a statement by a law enforcement official who called Martin a "murdered little boy". And all the photos of Martin I've seen anywhere are from when he was a cute little 13 year old, not a 17 year old high schooler.
Furthermore, how much credence Zimmerman's self-defense claim deserves is in part a function Martin's character (and Zimmerman's too). If Martin were a straight-A goody two shoes, I'd find it hard to believe that he attacked Zimmerman. If Martin were a violent thug with a long arrest record, Zimmerman's claim of self-defense would seem very plausible to me. The truth falls somewhere in between. Martin was 17 years old (not a little boy) and the reason he was up in Sanford, FL was because he was suspended from his Miami high school. Not for anything serious [edit: it was serious after all, drugs], but it does make Zimmerman's self-defense claim at least a little plausible.
Should Zimmerman have been following Martin? I wouldn't, but so what? It's not illegal to be where Zimmerman was. It's not illegal for Zimmerman to ask Martin what he was doing. Neither was Martin doing anything illegal. But that's the point. There was some poor judgement going on, but nothing illegal until either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. And which of those happened has not yet been determined.
The bottom line is that we don't know what happened. We don't have all the evidence (new stories are not evidence), and until the investigation is done and the facts known as well as possible, this whole thing reads to me like a witch hunt. And it would suck if Florida changes the Stand Your Ground law so that I have to risk imminent death before I can shoot an asshole trying to rob me.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (03/27/12 12:32 PM)
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memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15977743 - 03/21/12 06:15 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Diploid for pres.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes]
#15977972 - 03/21/12 07:14 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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I agree with diploid on this one...the facts are not in.
The law does not allow someone to use deadly force if they were the initial aggressor...In time, facts will come out to clarify it some...Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...
I'd represent him for free if I were in FLA.
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Censoring opposing views since 2014.
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Fuck the Amish
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15978233 - 03/21/12 08:33 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
I agree with diploid on this one...the facts are not in.
The law does not allow someone to use deadly force if they were the initial aggressor...In time, facts will come out to clarify it some...Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...
I'd represent him for free if I were in FLA.
I can't stand how the media convicts someone before the investigation is even over.
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qman
Stranger
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb] 1
#15978339 - 03/21/12 08:58 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
setb said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
I agree with diploid on this one...the facts are not in.
The law does not allow someone to use deadly force if they were the initial aggressor...In time, facts will come out to clarify it some...Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...
I'd represent him for free if I were in FLA.
I can't stand how the media convicts someone before the investigation is even over.
Remember the Duke lacrosse team charged with raping a black stripper.
The DA, media, Duke administrators, Duke professors, and all the local newspapers had these boys convicted before any of the facts were out.
The were protesting at the college in groups, holding candles, holding signs about how horrible the white men were, and convicting them in public.
The ruined several innocent young mens lifes, they dismantled a lacrosse program, and never really apologized for any of it. They figured that these young men were drinking and rented a stripper, so they are bad people and they deserve anything they had coming.
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memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: qman]
#15978479 - 03/21/12 09:28 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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I mean....
... did those lacross players rape that stripper?
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qman
Stranger
Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes]
#15978674 - 03/21/12 10:06 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
I mean....
... did those lacross players rape that stripper?
Sorry, I thought the case was well known. What happened was the DA dragged the case on for many months ignoring the evidence which showed the guys did not rape the girl.
The DA was later fired from his position because of this case, he enjoyed the attention he was getting and had no issue destroying several young mens lifes in the process.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean
Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes] 1
#15978720 - 03/21/12 10:14 PM (12 years, 28 days ago) |
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This case reminds me of Rodney King.
"Yeah it looked like he was on PCP. Then he attacked you, right? And you just acted like you were supposed to."
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