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Offlinewood chip
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weak strians and the spores they produce
    #14515292 - 05/26/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If the spores of weak stains are germinated the resulting cultures will be weak.  A vendor selling spores has vastly different products in terms of how strong the mushroom cultures are  and how the spores are generated for sale.  I have read mycologist who have stated that some stains of fungi are immortal and others degenerate in the book "Fungi: Experimental Methods In Biology"  Meaning some can and some cannot be grown exponentially in a chemostat indefinitely.     

This leads to a situation in which the vendor may intentionally produce weak spores because one cannot propagate them very long (unless they save the first isolate on a slant which would still be weak)  and it will likely be slightly weaker than the strain used by the vendor do make spores. 

If one is selling spores and wants someone to be dependent on reordering, they could easily take a weak stain and put it on a slant for the purpose of making sure a strong strains spores are not sold which has a greater diversity and the possibility of generating large numbers of high quality stains.       

The time of spore germination (or weak slant culture start up) to fruit body (minus the hibernation time)  is usually not given to the spore consumer.  Why?       

This is not a flame, but a question in regards to weather this type of practice occurs or if the theory itself has holes in it.

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Invisiblecc2
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14515660 - 05/26/11 02:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

IMO weak spores are those who germinate unevenly or at low percentages. it is highly unlikely that out of millions of spores you won't get a decent fruit which you cannot clone.

as for the times you're asking for, they depends largely on mushroom specie (tied variable) and method of culture, humidity, light, temperature etc. (free variable).

however still IMHO, all this seems unappropriate to advance mycology section.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #14515677 - 05/26/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
probably get more answers in cult

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Offlinewood chip
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce (moved) [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14520762 - 05/27/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, I posted in this in advanced mycology for a reason.

This subject is quite advanced and that is why I posted it there. 
I don't know why you moved it.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #14520789 - 05/27/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

spores arent strains yo.

spores are the genetic BASELINE

and sure they have some genetic similarities with the host fruit. but a weak fruit can produce spores with the potential of producing insanely potent fruits.

check the mushroom strains link in my sig for more info.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14520801 - 05/27/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
If one is selling spores and wants someone to be dependent on reordering





the sponsors dont play like that.

you only reorder if you want a variety of cube that you can't seem to find a trade for in the marketplace.


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Offlinewood chip
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: k00laid]
    #14523277 - 05/27/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Spore sales people have to make money. They have no obligation to sell spores originating from high quality strains. The spores must germinate which requires them to be young and generate from a strains with a certain minimum strength.  Old spores from high quality stains seem to be viable much longer.   
 
A weak damaged stains produces weak spores. eventually they will not produce spores, or the spores will not germinate.  If one has the means to have many parallel culture slants, of many different stains it would be easy to determine and test each stain.

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OfflineWing
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14523772 - 05/27/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Sponsors on this site are reputable dealers. They don't sell crap. Believe the countless members who can vouch.

As far as why a vendor would sell an inferior product ... IDK, why would they? They wouldn't be around long if people didn't like their product. So it would seem counter-productive to sabotage your business with "weak stains".



Makes no sense. It's just not logical:spock:


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OfflineWing
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: Wing]
    #14523786 - 05/27/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

A weak damaged stains produces weak spores. eventually they will not produce spores, or the spores will not germinate.




I really think you are confused. How do you go about damaging a strain? Fruits produce spores. Are we talking about an isolate or a ms syringe from a vendor?

ms syringes are crap shoots


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14523926 - 05/27/11 10:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
Spore sales people have to make money. They have no obligation to sell spores originating from high quality strains..




you seem to be misunderstanding what mushrooms do.

spores are the genetic baseline.

spores cant be bad, even from a bad fruit.

you get spores from an albino you dont always get albinos

you get spores from a potent fruit you dont always get potent fruits

you get spores from a weak fruit and you dont always get weak fruits.

you see what im sayin here?


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Invisiblefngbronco
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: k00laid]
    #14524585 - 05/28/11 01:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You're also not taking into account they can sell 100% dead spores as they are for microscopy use only.

The other claims are very much unfounded as people can take a non-potent b+ and get super potent ones with the spores.

I realize there's no difference except were they were collected from in the wild that changes potential appearance or growth characteristics in certain environments. Otherwise the spores are completely different specimens...think of how close you are to your parents or cousins. Even people who's parents are siblings (mom marries sister-in-laws brother or brother in laws brother, or incest if you wanna go that route) produce either weak or strong kids.


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I challenge you to challenge yourself more! When you feel complacent and ready to hang it up, challenge yourself to get over it! If you fail, don't look at it as you didn't succeed, look at it as you would a rock face you're trying to climb. Stand back, wayyyy back, and look at it and plot another path. If you can't find one, shuffle down the way a little, a little change of scenery or a view from a different angle may give you the insight you need.

Anything I state is relayed information from a friend of a friend and should be viewed as completely fictitious. I do not partake in any illegal or grey-area-of-the-law activities, but do have lots of friends who may or may not.    -fngbronco

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Invisibleslapphappypill
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: fngbronco]
    #14524811 - 05/28/11 02:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fngbronco said:
You're also not taking into account they can sell 100% dead spores as they are for microscopy use only.





Right there! Thats what earth's tongue did to me!! They sent me spores that produced non-fruiting mycelium. Then told me to shove off


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FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~

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OfflineAlex22
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: fngbronco]
    #14525241 - 05/28/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fngbronco said:
You're also not taking into account they can sell 100% dead spores as they are for microscopy use only.

The other claims are very much unfounded as people can take a non-potent b+ and get super potent ones with the spores.

I realize there's no difference except were they were collected from in the wild that changes potential appearance or growth characteristics in certain environments. Otherwise the spores are completely different specimens...think of how close you are to your parents or cousins. Even people who's parents are siblings (mom marries sister-in-laws brother or brother in laws brother, or incest if you wanna go that route) produce either weak or strong kids.




I have only small experience growing but I can say this is very true. I ordered from a non shroomery vendor because I didn't know of this site yet and the cakes took over a month to colonize. I took a spore print from one of the mushrooms and made a syringe. It has been about ten days and the jars I inoculated with it are about 70% colonized already. While I bought another syringe from the same site and it is barely colonized.

So in other words the spores I bought from them might have had bad genetics (I only got a few good sized shrooms in later flushes and a bunch of dime sized caps) but the offspring the original spores produced seems to be stronger at this early stage. The true test will be the fruiting I suppose however.


--------------------
http://gaianmushroommind.webs.com/articles.htm

Trying to start a movement. Here is the first article. Excerpt:


" Imagine if I told you that you could use the alphabet but only from G to V. That sounds ridiculous right? Then why is it okay to live our lives within the parameters others set? There is an entire world of experience that we are being denied."

Read it, let me know what you think, PM me.

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OfflineSKrink
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14525388 - 05/28/11 08:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
A weak damaged stains produces weak spores. eventually they will not produce spores, or the spores will not germinate.




Stupid people can have smart kids. Short people can have tall kids. Blonde people can have brunette kids. And vice versa, et cetera. Luck of the draw, recessive/dominant alleles and all that. (sorry my biology is rusty)

I know mushrooms are not people, but just as a parallel:

A short, stupid, ugly couple isn't necessarily doomed to pass on those traits indefinitely until complete degeneration of their bloodline. Unless they continually and ridiculously select for those traits in their mates.

Oh, and mushrooms are people too!  :grin:

Quote:

wood chip said:
Spore sales people have to make money. They have no obligation to sell spores originating from high quality strains.




They do if they want to make money. With a community like the Shroomery, word spreads too quick for a low quality vendor to stay in business.


--------------------
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:mushroom2:HOW TO USE A PENIS ENVY SPORE SWAB:mushroom2:

   

... Oh mighty masticator, salivator, vocalizer, swallower, licker biter sucker brow-knitter looker blinker rubbernecker thumber prodder up-yours fingerer ringwearer nosepicker waver drinker armlifter bodybender hipswiveler kneer springer runner ZERO::::::::OOOOOOOOO:::::::: RUN!!!

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: SKrink]
    #14525497 - 05/28/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A SYRINGE FULL OF SPORES AND UNDERSTAND WHICH OF THOSE SPORES WILL PRODUCE A FRUITING STRAIN OR NOT.

SPORES ARE GENETIC BASELINE.

im leaving this thread now, yall can masturbate about how sponsors are conspiring to take your money in peace.

:hatsoff:


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Invisiblefngbronco
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: k00laid]
    #14525555 - 05/28/11 09:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Most the people here are in agreement with ya k00laid :smile:


--------------------
I challenge you to challenge yourself more! When you feel complacent and ready to hang it up, challenge yourself to get over it! If you fail, don't look at it as you didn't succeed, look at it as you would a rock face you're trying to climb. Stand back, wayyyy back, and look at it and plot another path. If you can't find one, shuffle down the way a little, a little change of scenery or a view from a different angle may give you the insight you need.

Anything I state is relayed information from a friend of a friend and should be viewed as completely fictitious. I do not partake in any illegal or grey-area-of-the-law activities, but do have lots of friends who may or may not.    -fngbronco

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Offlinewood chip
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: SKrink]
    #14525648 - 05/28/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Fact.  Not all viable spores are equal.  Most stains grown over and over (a spawn run with lots of cell divisions) mutate over time usually for the worst.  All mycologist working in this field know this.  This is not about vendors ripping people off.  I think most vendors here would replace a contaminated syringe or dead spores.  Would they sell spores generated from a super stain made from an intentional spore cross, mutation,that created an exceptionally rigorous strain, or one cloned from the wild.     

When a species is named only a one or a couple of stains are described in the beginning.  As more and more become available it becomes clear the definition has to become more general and expanded to the point of questioning are there more than one species and should a general group be considered instead. Sometimes bridges showing the continuity can be elucidated.  If you have several close species of a mushroom and one was clearly superior in performance would you sell it and allow the strain to be freely amplified?  No commercial operation would allow this.   

Why do commercial "Agaricus bisporus group" spawn producers often use stains isolated many years ago and held on slants? These advanced strain crossers and world wide isolaters of new wild Agaricus mushrooms must know the answer, unfortunately there are very secretive. 
 
Are the clones of these Agaricus stains, from the store, so much weaker than the mother spawn just because of a single run through compost.  Anyone ever wonder why there are zero high quality Agaricus grows on the shroomery?     

These questions require a great deal of experimental observation to answer accurately.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14525722 - 05/28/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
Fact.  Not all viable spores are equal.



fact.  you nor the sponsor can tell the difference between a viable and unviable spore, or a potent or unpotent spore.


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Offlinewood chip
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: k00laid]
    #14525931 - 05/28/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is very easy to tell the difference by simple germination and observation.


However, even without germinating the spore, a statistical probability could be made by one who is familiar with strain performance and the life cycles that an individual culture complex has gone through.  I suspect inbreeding can be a real problem for vendors who do not store stains properly, or go back to prints collected from the wild.  One might even know that spores will germinate only once or twice before the death of the cell line.  This would require hibernating a strain in a slant and testing the cycles for decrease in spore viability and fruit body clone abiltiy which are related.  Cloned fruit bodies of dying strains produce slow growing degenerate mycelium they also produce degenerating spores. These kind of spores generate a similar mycelium to a clone of the fruit body in which they originate from in my observations.  Not a lot of diversity left.  Inbreeding or to long equals death and is not sustainable.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: weak strians and the spores they produce [Re: wood chip]
    #14525954 - 05/28/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
One might even know that spores will germinate only once or twice before the death of the cell line.




this is where you're confused.

if you grow from spores, 99.9999999% the spores you recieve from ANY fruit will germinate and fruit just fine.


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