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OfflineHitsuzen
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Damion5050 Coir Tek Question
    #14034026 - 02/27/11 12:54 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Hi all,

I really like the look of Damion5050's coir/verm tek. Seems like the route my parakeet is going to take. One question: how does it work, sterility-wise? Does adding the boiling water like essentially pasteurize the mix as the water cools?

Thanks!


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Offlinedmonkey1
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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Hitsuzen]
    #14034043 - 02/27/11 01:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yes and no, usually coir bricks are pretty clean themselves.  The addition of boiling water isn't close to a pasteurization technique.  But it's proven to work.


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: dmonkey1]
    #14034333 - 02/27/11 03:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The purpose isn't to sterilize but to pasteurize. I have heard that some people have had problems with the boiling water being too hot as to sterilize the medium as opposed to the intended latter. But it obviously works for Damion5050 as he claims no contams before the 3rd flush. I use his tek, but elaborate slightly. Leaving my 5gal bucket lid loose and not tightened down, and shake the medium to somewhat rid it of heat whilst still pasteurizing as the intended purpose. However I have the same successes as he, usually not seeing contams before the third flush. In my opinion, if you achieve a fully colonized substrate without contamination, it's all dependent on the nutrients and antibiotics left in the medium that determines whether you get a contamination or not, not how well you prepare your substrate.

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Offlinefaceyneck
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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14034357 - 02/27/11 03:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In my opinion, if you achieve a fully colonized substrate without contamination, it's all dependent on the nutrients and antibiotics left in the medium that determines whether you get a contamination or not, not how well you prepare your substrate.




You're entitled to your opinions, sure, but this isn't a matter of opinion.

:sorry: I do not intend to be rude, or start an argument.

Whether or not Vanilla ice cream is the best ice cream flavor ever invented, or whether or not the Jame's Bond films are a good film series, are matters of opinion.

Success of substrates contingent on pasteurization techniques is an objective matter.

It is an objective fact that an improperly pasteurized substrate will be more susceptible to contamination than a properly pasteurized substrate.

One most certainly still can have success with a half-assed pasteurization, even with manure, and there will always be outliers.

If part of the substrate becomes sterilized, and is then spawned to in open air, mold spores and bacteria will almost definitely become incorporated into the sterile substrate. It is then a gamble from that point whether or not the mycelium of the spawn will take over the sterilized substrate well enough to stave off a catastrophic contamination.

Many people can and do have success with Damion50/50's method. Fuck, I've used it myself. I've had contamination problems, though, sometimes beginning before the end of the first flush. :nonono:

Here's an experiment - try adding hot tap water to the coir to hydrate, and see how it turns out. I'll wager you'll have equally as good results.

Properly pasteurized :glittershitz: is my substrate of choice. It's like perpetual. :bliss: :lol:

If anyone's interested - you can find my method for it here. Manure is the best substrate there is for Cubensis, to be sure. Evolution has metaphorically made this choice for us.


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: faceyneck]
    #14034376 - 02/27/11 04:06 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I was simply stating that after the medium is fully colonized, it is out of the hands of "proper pasteurization" to keep the substrate from being contaminated. From my experience, and control tests, after complete colonization, it's up to the mycelium to defend itself based on the strength it has left. I have left grows in questionable conditions with virtually open air after it had dominated the substrate but with conditions still abiding to strain needs, and still had 2 flushes after the fact. If you give your mycelium favorable conditions to where it can grow, it will continue to beat out contaminates until it's nutrients are spent, based on my experiments.
No arguement intended, but I will post a log on my next grow if you'd like.

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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14034383 - 02/27/11 04:16 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I am not saying that it is COMPLETELY out of the hands of clean conditions, but after full colonization, the major battle is over. Your mycelium can fight most of the battles given that you don't bombard it with loads of unnecessary dirt, dryness and unfavorable conditions.
Each fungal species was genetically engineered naturally to make it's niche in the world, if they were SOOOO vulnerable to attack, they would each fail in the battles that they face with each other each and every day.

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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14034441 - 02/27/11 04:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I was simply stating that after the medium is fully colonized, it is out of the hands of "proper pasteurization" to keep the substrate from being contaminated.




I know. That's most specifically what I was referring to.

Throughout the life of the substrate, it will be susceptible to contamination because of the lack of microbials, and the addition of spores from the environment in which it was spawned.


Quote:

From my experience, and control tests, after complete colonization, it's up to the mycelium to defend itself based on the strength it has left.




What "control tests" did you conduct to determine this?

I'm simply trying to avoid spread of improper information. As a very obvious example, if I said it were my opinion that the Earth was flat, you'd probably want to point out that whether or not the Earth is flat isn't a matter of opinion. It's the same here.

Perhaps if you were an expert in the field of microbiology, or another area of expertise related to the topic, it would be worth considering your research. As it stands, the general consensus, amongst biologists and mycologists alike, is that sterilization of a substrate, exposed to the elements at the time of spawning, leaves it more susceptible to contamination for the life of the substrate. It's a fact.

If you read up on what biologists have to say about monocultures, you'll see this topic discussed quite a bit. This is why a lack of biodiversity is always more prone to contamination.

Quote:

I have left grows in questionable conditions with virtually open air after it had dominated the substrate but with conditions still abiding to strain needs, and still had 2 flushes after the fact. If you give your mycelium favorable conditions to where it can grow, it will continue to beat out contaminates until it's nutrients are spent, based on my experiments.




What you are citing as evidence fails one of the fundamental steps of the scientific method:

#6: Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis

I'm not so sure you had a starting hypothesis. You did suggest you carried out an experiment to show that it's "out of the hands" of the substrate after full colonization.

Okay, so, you conduct this 'experiment,' and the substrate doesn't contaminate.

You consider this evidence that proper pasteurization is only relevant up to full colonization?

Can you see that an equally valid hypothesis is that it was a successful grow because it simply didn't matter whether or not the substrate was properly pasteurized?

How could you formulate an experiment to show this to begin with?

A sterile medium is susceptible to contamination if exposed to the open air before full colonization. This does not mean it will contaminate. It also does not mean that this exposure goes away after the mycelium colonizes the substrate.

It is a fact that a properly pasteurized substrate provides more resistance to contamination than a sterile one, assuming spawning in open air. That doesn't ever stop being a factor. It's not simply my opinion.

For sterile substrate, spawned in a sterile environment, that's totally different. Just thought I'd lay that out for clarity.

You saying your opinion on this topic is equivalent to someone saying they have the opinion that the world is flat, although I'll be the first to admit the analogy seems a bit insulting, and I do apologize for that. I wanted to show something that was easy to understand, not castigate.

Post your 'results' if you want, sure. I'll be VERY interested if you come up with a way to actually show what your opinion is. :awesomenod:

At the moment, you're presenting an Appeal to Ignorance. Sort of like, "Well, my grow didn't contaminate, and it wasn't properly pasteurized, so therefore the mycelium took over the substrate, and then it didn't matter after that whether or not it was properly pasteurized. It didn't contaminate, therefore my opinion is correct."

You're citing a lack of evidence as evidence. And, this doesn't fit the bill of legitimate research, or anything near valid evidence.

You can go ahead an post a response if you want. This is very on-topic for what the thread is, so even though it's turned into somewhat of a debate, I'll let it run its path since it's relevant to the thread topic.

I don't have any problem debating intellectual and/or mycological issues.

Please don't take any of this personal. Just thought I'd state that out in the open, as people oftentimes assume malevolence when dealing with a disagreement. I have absolutely no qualms with you as a person; just your opinion.


:aweneck:


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Offlinefaceyneck
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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14034444 - 02/27/11 04:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
I am not saying that it is COMPLETELY out of the hands of clean conditions, but after full colonization, the major battle is over.





Um... :confused2: I think you did say it was out of the hands of the substrate:

Quote:

In my opinion, if you achieve a fully colonized substrate without contamination, it's all dependent on the nutrients and antibiotics left in the medium that determines whether you get a contamination or not, not how well you prepare your substrate.




If I misunderstood what you meant, that's fine. It seems to me you in fact did say it's reliant on things outside of pasteurization after full colonization... "completely." :shrug:


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: faceyneck]
    #14035082 - 02/27/11 10:18 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Even if the boiling water sterilizes a portion of the substrate, the rest would be pasteurized, no? So when you mix the whole shebang together, wouldn't it distribute the remaining beneficial germs throughout the mixture?


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Hitsuzen]
    #14035799 - 02/27/11 12:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No I did not follow the scientific method, nor did I log my results. But here's what I did.

I grew 8 tubs of B+, let 7 of them continue to 4 flushes. I flipped the substrate over on the 8th tub after a successful first flush, just out of curiosity on how it would react. I got 5 quite beefy mushrooms on the top, which is quite sparse, but an unbelievably large amount of side pins. I harvested the bounty and flipped it back over. There were HUNDREDS of small underdeveloped pins from a flush that would have happened if I hadn't flipped the substrate. I removed the poly fil from all six holes and didn't water it for 3 days. Within that time the the mycelium recovered and actually started consuming the underdeveloped mushrooms and a week later a less than impressive flush came.

"I am not saying that it is COMPLETELY out of the hands of clean conditions, but after full colonization, the major battle is over."

Meaning that eventually your substrate will fall to contaminations, but never in my case after I'd achieved a fully colonized substrate, nor before the third flush. Even my dummy grow supported this as much as I know I stressed the poor things. There are mold spores inside the tub as your mushrooms are growing, even if you have a very clean room, it WILL fall when it becomes unable to defend itself. Point: it is more of a factor, the nutes left in the sub, than how clean you keep your grow after you achieve full colonization (of course to a reasonable degree).

"In my opinion, if you achieve a fully colonized substrate without contamination, it's all dependent on the nutrients and antibiotics left in the medium that determines whether you get a contamination or not, not how well you prepare your substrate."

After you achieve full colonization, it matters not how well you prepared your substrate. But you made a good point that I failed to mention. That only remains true, being that you didn't sterilize the substrate. Killing the beneficial bacteria would make it more vulnerable to a hostile takeover.

:starwars:

:grin: We're cool mang, just an innocent point/counterpoint discussion.

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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Hitsuzen]
    #14037450 - 02/27/11 06:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DrGonz0 said:
Even if the boiling water sterilizes a portion of the substrate, the rest would be pasteurized, no? So when you mix the whole shebang together, wouldn't it distribute the remaining beneficial germs throughout the mixture?




Well, yes and no.

For one thing, it would be REALLY difficult to fully homogenize the sterilized substrate in with the non-sterilized substrate.

For another, there is still the problem of all the potentially contaminating spores and bacteria coming into contact with the sterilized substrate no matter what. The microbials that are preserved during pasteurization grow extremely slowly at room temperature. Many of which are dormant thermophiles, if I remember correctly.

If you mixed the pseudo-pasteurized substrate with a blender or something, for a long, long time, maybe like 5 minutes, you might be able to homogenize the mixture enough so that the mycelium will get a strong enough hold on all the sterile stuff so that it can fend for itself.

However, when the first flush is then harvested, there will be spots here and there that the harvesting process disturbed. If potential contaminants had begun a minuscule culture in those areas, the substrate will now be at risk for a full-blown contamination.


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14037552 - 02/27/11 06:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

:starwars:

:grin: We're cool mang, just an innocent point/counterpoint discussion.




Good. :super: It's difficult when posting on a forum to communicate a LACK of hostility, since voice inflection, facial expression, body language, etc. are all missing.

...even with all that stuff, though:

I've had full-blown professors of fucking philosophy take intellectual debate as a personal attack. :smbfacepalm:

Some people are just really insecure I guess. :ohwell:

Quote:

After you achieve full colonization, it matters not how well you prepared your substrate. But you made a good point that I failed to mention. That only remains true, being that you didn't sterilize the substrate. Killing the beneficial bacteria would make it more vulnerable to a hostile takeover.





Okay. I can see what you mean there I suppose.

In my years of growing, I have found it to be true that a properly pasteurized substrate is nearly bullet-proof. If a substrate with a good amount of nutrients isn't properly pasteurized, it will continue to be more vulnerable to contamination, vis-a-vis, runs a risk of contaminating before 2+ flushes. This is in line with what is established as the 'truth' you could say about biodiversity and monocultures.

Oh, and to DrGonzo - you should try doing Damion's tek twice, once  as per his recommendation, then again with simply hot tap water. You probably won't find a difference. Continued over years and years, though, proper pasteurization of coir will either yield as good or better results than the other two methods/water temperatures.

In the long run, practical benefit is what counts, right? :grin:


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: faceyneck]
    #14037621 - 02/27/11 06:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Something everybody seems to be missing here is that pasteurization and sterilization accomplish something besides killing off the bad guys.  The heat 'cooks' the substrate, making the cellular material within easier for the mycelium to break down.  This is why when people do no heat treatment at all with coir, they hardly ever reach full colonization. 

It's damned hard for mold spores to germinate on coir.  I've left wet coir doormats on my porch all year without mold.  I've also had wet coir in a bucket for weeks without it molding.  When one sterilizes coir either with a pressure cooker or boiling water, they effectively cook it so the mycelium can get a foothold.  Since mold can't easily germinate on coir, this works.  If you try it with horse manure or straw, you'll be lucky to get to first flush.
RR


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14037845 - 02/27/11 07:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I was under the impression that the processing coir has already gone through, malleates the piss out of the coir cells from the get-go:

"The fibrous husks are soaked in pits or in nets in a slow moving body of water to swell and soften the fibres. The long bristle fibres are separated from the shorter mattress fibres underneath the skin of the nut, a process known as wet-milling. The mattress fibres are sifted to remove dirt and other rubbish, dried in the sun and packed into bales."

I would think hydrating, drying, and then rehydrating the material would soften it up quite a bit already. :shrug:

I've personally seen no difference between hot tap water and boiling water - neither one fully colonizes like a manure-based substrate. The mycelium covers the coir in a thin, wispy blanket, not dense and white.

Others have experienced this as well. :ohwell:


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: faceyneck]
    #14038063 - 02/27/11 07:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"I've also had wet coir in a bucket for weeks without it molding." (RR)

Yeah, I just made a coir/lime based cactus soil substrate and it's been in my bucket for weeks, wet and covered and I noticed no visible contams.

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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14039525 - 02/27/11 11:02 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, that's why it makes a good substrate for reptile bedding.

My father used it alot as a soilless medium for growing marijuana as well.


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: faceyneck]
    #14039576 - 02/27/11 11:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I've personally seen no difference between hot tap water and boiling water - neither one fully colonizes like a manure-based substrate.




Then try properly pasteurizing it by hydrating to field capacity and then heating it to 140F/60C for 90 minutes.  Watch it fully colonize and form a very solid substrate.  Processing/washing is not the same as cooking.  We humans get far more nutrition out of our food when it's been cooked, rather than eating it raw.  Fungi have a lot in common with us.
RR


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14040017 - 02/28/11 12:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I've done something similar.

I hydrated, placed into a paint strainer bag, and submerged the strainer bag in 165 degrees F for 90 minutes.

Same result - wispy, weak colonization. I suppose sort of "cooking" it might help, over a stove.

I always get better results from properly pasteurized manure. It's also free, and I have a nearly endless supply of it. :shrug:

The tubs in Damion50/50's tek did not reach full colonization. Any bin of Doc_T's coir grows I've seen haven't either. I saw Base Icks recently try 100% coir as well with the same result. ProfessorPinHead experience similar results. Eventually anecdote is worthwhile evidence.

I actually do have a bin right now of 100% coir that did reach full consolidation, but it took until the second flush to get there.

I'm not trying to say coir won't work as a bulk substrate. I am saying it doesn't work very well for me or others either, and I've tried every way I can think of to get it to work, including proper pasteurization.

Manure is Cubensis substrate of choice in nature, so I'll stick to that. Coir is a great additive to manure, though. It adds a great texture.


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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: faceyneck]
    #14040130 - 02/28/11 02:18 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I have no problems getting 100% colonization if I wait 2-2.5 weeks to administer fruiting conditions after spawning. That gives the mycelium plenty of time to digest it's food, and it strengthens the first and following flushes and also beef up the mycelium so it isn't wispy, waiting that long. I don't supplement extra nutes like coffee or anything either. I just have to inconveniently wait longer for it to perform to my satisfaction.

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Re: Damion5050 Coir Tek Question [Re: Microppose]
    #14040518 - 02/28/11 06:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Do you not have access to manure, then?

With manure, I reach full colonization in one week. Well, actually, in about 5 days, then 2 days of consolidation from there.

2-2.5 weeks is a long time to wait for a bin to colonize, for me, at least.

EDIT_ it might be relevant to point out that I use a little less than a 1:4 ratio. When I use a spawn ratio of 1:3, full colonization is even faster.


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Edited by faceyneck (02/28/11 06:53 AM)

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