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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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evolutionists
#14022850 - 02/24/11 10:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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now, i believe in evolution, but i also believe that there is something more than a brain. im not here to beat that horse though.
the only thing that i see separates us from any animal, is the capacity for abstract thought. what would the evolutionary purpose for abstract thought be? and how could it further adhere to the rules of evolution by propagating itself through our species over these many years?
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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Abstract thought is a precursor to innovation. If we all did the same shit our ancestors did, we'd still be living in huts. Thus, we evolved to have an ingrained drive for novelty. We like originality. This, itself, allows us to think outside the box, ready to take on any form of new adversary.
-------------------- 大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Diploid
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What meatcakeman said plus...
Abstract thinking is what makes us so much more powerful than the rest of the animals.
A neanderthal might learn from its mother that the plant with the triangle leaves is poison. Don't eat it or it will kill you. The end.
The human might learn the same thing from his mother, then abstract that if it kills people, it might kill animals too. So he puts it on a dart and shoots a monkey in a tree that he would otherwise have no chance of catching and eating.
Voila, the abstracter gets fat, has lots of kids who think in the abstract like their father, and a few millennia later you get iPods.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Re: evolutionists [Re: Diploid]
#14022998 - 02/24/11 10:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't consider that abstract thought.
what either of you posted.
think more along the lines of patriotism, fame, morality. a triangle leaf is tangible, and so it is not abstract. do not confuse deduction or "thinking outside the box" as abstract thought.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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ohhh i see.. humanistic thought is a different subject indeed... to judge humanistic thought, you must try and perceive its humanistic worth. depending on how certain "though trends" pertain to human society, the "trend" could either be culturally useful or completely useless.
example: morality is a humanistic idea. thus, it does not naturally pertain to the rest of the universe. therefore, the universe could naturally do without it. but, in relation to humanity, morality is a collective library of human theory, including personal ideals relating to the concept of Self, familial ideals, societal ideals, and so on. this collective idea "bank" allows all members of society to have a common ground, which subconsciously familiarizes us to each other. now, we can create teamwork. i'm assuming such a idealogical commonality would pose as a necessity for humans as we grew from a collective of tribes to larger populations.
-------------------- 大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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SneezingPenis
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but our capacity for abstract ideas far predates the transition from tribes to cities.
even if evolution somehow justifies the existence of abstract thought, then it still seems that it is abstract thought for abstract thought's sake. even things like diplomacy are practiced by lower order species, but it once again is out of survival that it does so. same goes for mating rituals that while they have roots in abstraction, one can easily draw a line between it and sex and see why it flourished.
we have even found that we can instill the concept of currency in primates... but then again, while "value" is an abstract idea, it is completely entangled in survival, so that idea of value can be mistaken for simple acknowledgement of it being a tool of survival. for example: a monkey receives a token and when it gives it back to a handler, it receives a banana. well if enough monkeys believe in it, they can actually trade this token for sex, in which the female takes the token and gets food... before, the token would have no meaning, but now it is associated with food, therefor we cannot say that the monkey acknowledges an abstract value of the token, but rather plays this game as an instinctual response towards survival without even knowing it is playing a game.
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meatcakeman
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so you're saying humanistic ideals are only useful because they are instilled in us? yeah we were conditioned to play this little game, but some of us realize it is just a game. and since we are hand-fed these ideals, we can't do much but play by them. the decision is plain and simple. you must accept government and societal ownership in order to survive amongst the crowd, or left to fend by yourself. so, personally, it depends on the individual as to how one perceives certain "abstract" thoughts. imo, it's been engrained within our society for so long that we pretty much have to acknowledge its existence, to say the least. in such terms, our "abstract" thought becomes the muse to our own hallucinations.
-------------------- 大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Icelander
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Quote:
Icelander said: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/dec/06/animalbehaviour
i really dont see how they consider that abstract thought. also it is still entangled in a primary function of survival. now if they made the dogs make a purely aesthetic choice, like choosing between two identical beds except one is leopard print and another zebra, then it would make a more affording argument for lower order species using true abstract thought void of instinct.
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
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some good shit meetcakeman, above your sig and below your reply.
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auxiliary
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Quote:
mushiepussy said: above your sig and below your reply.
nice
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circastes
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Does anyone else see this kind of evolutionary theory as a kind of tautology? It's saying, "we evolved traits so we could better evolve traits." That's a tautology right? I always see it that way.
I think evolution is just a small slice of the story of what's happened to get us to the present moment. There's a greater theory we need to find that includes consciousness as primary and purposeful. Consciousness wanted to play a game.
Seems to me science in this vein just loves to put everything down, so we can all have an excuse to be bastards to eachother, or just satisfy our intellectual pompousity.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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4896744
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said: now, i believe in evolution, but i also believe that there is something more than a brain. im not here to beat that horse though.
the only thing that i see separates us from any animal, is the capacity for abstract thought. what would the evolutionary purpose for abstract thought be? and how could it further adhere to the rules of evolution by propagating itself through our species over these many years?
You lack a good understanding of evolution. Even if you can't come up with a way that abstract thought can increase chances of survival, it could just be a result of another trait which does help with survival. Diploid's post is a perfect example of traits that would help survival that could easily create your definition (although poor) of abstract thought as a by product.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
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There's a greater theory we need to find that includes consciousness as primary and purposeful.
This is a very telling sentence here and it gives your bias away which has been obvious to me for a long time. There may be a very good reason we have not found serious evidence for this greater theory.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Perhaps you are not evolved enough to get The Greater Theory...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Gosh, I never thought of that?
I'm sure Circastes did though.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
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Quote:
circastes said: I think evolution is just a small slice of the story of what's happened to get us to the present moment.
Why do you think that?
Quote:
circastes said: There's a greater theory we need to find that includes consciousness as primary and purposeful.
There is? What kind of evidence backs up the assertion that consciousness is "primary and purposeful"? What do you even mean by that?
Quote:
circastes said: Consciousness wanted to play a game.
How do you know that? What kind of game? How are you defining 'consciousness' here?
Quote:
circastes said: Seems to me science in this vein just loves to put everything down...
Why does it seem that way to you?
Quote:
circastes said: ...so we can all have an excuse to be bastards to eachother, or just satisfy our intellectual pompousity.
What does evolutionary theory have to do with people being bastards to each other? Why do you think evolutionary theory has to do with people wanting to satisfy their intellectual "pompousity"?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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Quote:
mushiepussy said: some good shit meetcakeman, above your sig and below your reply.
what are you talking about? the link?
-------------------- 大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Farfetchedchild
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There is always a chance abstract thought was just kind of carried along with our increased problem solving skill. Traits often carry along other traits, like friendliness and floppy ears.
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auxiliary
Mr.
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