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InvisibleveggieM

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 17,504
Don't buy the hype on pot legalization
    #13355978 - 10/19/10 07:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Don't buy the hype on pot legalization
October19, 2010 - CNN
By Jeffrey A. Miron

On November 2, California will vote on Proposition 19, a measure to legalize marijuana. Advocates believe Prop 19 will generate a major budgetary windfall and unleash an economic boom in marijuana-related industries while reducing crime, corruption and Mexican drug violence.

Prop 19 opponents fear it will increase marijuana and other drug use via the gateway effect and spur the alleged negatives of use, such as crime or diminished health.

Most claims on both sides are exaggerated or misleading. Legalizing marijuana is the right policy for California and the nation. But in considering Prop 19, everyone should start with a balanced assessment of its likely impact.

California has long been at the forefront of the push-back against marijuana prohibition. The state decriminalized marijuana in 1975, meaning it eliminated criminal penalties for possession of small amounts. California then legalized medical marijuana in 1996. Plus, in 2009, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said the federal government would not interfere with medical marijuana in states where it is legal under state law.

Most claims on both sides are exaggerated or misleading.

Prop 19 goes a step further by legalizing all marijuana use for adults 21 or older as well as production and sales. Thus marijuana would be a legal product under California law.

Full legalization sounds like a major policy change. But under existing law, marijuana is almost legal in many respects. Almost anyone can get a prescription for medical marijuana, and prices are not much elevated compared with a legal market. So legalization would have minimal impact on use. This means that concerns over the negatives of use -- valid or not -- are irrelevant.

Legalization would be a significant change in that marijuana production and sale would move above ground. State and local governments could then tax it. California is expecting $1.4 billion in additional tax revenue from legalization, along with reduced criminal justice expenditure.

In a recent Cato Institute paper, however, Kate Waldock and I estimate that California could collect only $352 million in addition revenue.

This amount is not trivial, but it is minor compared with California's budget deficit. California might also see a reduction of around $960 million in expenditure on arrests, prosecutions and prisons, but only by laying off police, judges and prison guards. This is politically painful, so it may not happen.

Legalizing marijuana is the right policy for both California and the nation.

Legalization advocates also believe that bringing the market above ground will spur related industries, such as head shops or marijuana cafes. Most of this economic activity, however, is already present; legalization just recognizes it officially. Marijuana cafes, for example, will shift business from medical marijuana dispensaries, or bars, without a major net increase.

What about Prop 19's effect on crime? Critics believe marijuana causes criminal behavior, as in "reefer madness," but these claims have no empirical support.

Legalizers argue black markets are violent and corrupt, so legalization should reduce crime. This view is well-founded, but because the California's marijuana market is close to legal, the reduction in crime will be modest. Likewise, much Mexican drug violence relates to cocaine and methamphetamines, so marijuana legalization will have a small impact.

Perhaps the most important caveat about Prop 19 is that it only legalizes marijuana under state law.

The federal government's prohibition will remain in place, so the federal government could still enforce that prohibition in California. This happened for medical marijuana under the Bush administration, and under the alcohol Prohibition of the 1920s and early '30s, when the federal government enforced prohibition in states that had not banned alcohol.

Prop 19 advocates have assumed that the Obama administration would tolerate legalized marijuana, as it does now for medical marijuana. This always seemed unlikely, however. Federal abdication would give the Republicans a huge issue and suggest that states can ignore federal laws they oppose, such as "Obamacare."

And just last week, Holder announced that the federal government strongly opposes Prop 19 and will aggressively enforce federal marijuana prohibition in California, regardless of Prop 19's outcome.

Prop 19's passage could mean a Supreme Court showdown, which California would lose. In the 2005 Gonzalez v. Raich case, the court held that the Constitution's commerce clause allows the federal government to bar individuals from cultivating marijuana on their own property for their own medicinal use. Reasonable people dispute the ruling, but the Supreme Court's conservative-to-liberal ratio has not changed. So the court will again invoke the commerce clause, wrongly, to justify a federal ban on full legalization.

On many fronts, Prop 19 might have less impact than proponents or opponents suggest. But Prop 19 might generate benefits.

If Prop 19 passes, this will encourage other states to legalize. And if enough states do so, the pressure on the federal government could pass a tipping point.

In a free society, the presumption must be that people can smoke, snort, eat or inject whatever they wish, so long as they do not harm others. The burden of proof should rest on those who would ban marijuana, not those who want it legal. That burden has never been met.

By adopting Prop 19, California can restore a presumption of liberty. That is reason enough.

Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics and director of undergraduate studies at Harvard University and a senior fellow at the Cato Institute.

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Offlineauronlives69
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: veggie]
    #13356080 - 10/19/10 08:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

~California might also see a reduction of around $960 million in expenditure on arrests, prosecutions and prisons, but only by laying off police, judges and prison guards~

shit good riddance, the world is too overcrouded with these swine


--------------------

The past is dead. It was all just a dream...

Edited by auronlives69 (10/19/10 01:08 PM)

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: auronlives69]
    #13356211 - 10/19/10 08:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Full legalization sounds like a major policy change. But under existing law, marijuana is almost legal in many respects. Almost anyone can get a prescription for medical marijuana, and prices are not much elevated compared with a legal market. So legalization would have minimal impact on use. This means that concerns over the negatives of use -- valid or not -- are irrelevant.




This isn't true. Not everybody is going to get a recommendation for cannabis by visiting one or two doctors and paying a couple hundred dollars just to get their medical script.  Also some cities don't allow dispensaries and people must drive far to get medical. Also theft is a problem with outdoor grows in residential areas and theft with medical cannabis because it still retains a high market value. If it is purely legal there would definitely be a change and many many many more people would be growing marijuana eliminating a good amount of theft, and the loop hole of having to pay a doctor and find a dispensary.

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Offlinepaulioni613
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13356347 - 10/19/10 09:31 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Quote:

Full legalization sounds like a major policy change. But under existing law, marijuana is almost legal in many respects. Almost anyone can get a prescription for medical marijuana, and prices are not much elevated compared with a legal market. So legalization would have minimal impact on use. This means that concerns over the negatives of use -- valid or not -- are irrelevant.




This isn't true. Not everybody is going to get a recommendation for cannabis by visiting one or two doctors and paying a couple hundred dollars just to get their medical script.  Also some cities don't allow dispensaries and people must drive far to get medical. Also theft is a problem with outdoor grows in residential areas and theft with medical cannabis because it still retains a high market value. If it is purely legal there would definitely be a change and many many many more people would be growing marijuana eliminating a good amount of theft, and the loop hole of having to pay a doctor and find a dispensary.





yep as i been saying..it is far easier than you think to grow..if you visit any hydro store..well in my area those guys are willing to help you out with anything you need to know..and i think its only a matter of time before the U.s. gov comes up with a MJ plant that can cause cancer..or at least make these growers of their medical crops use Nutes that are Gov. Made that could cause Cancer..the Gov will not make it legal unless they are making money off people getting sick from it to..thats a fact with almost everything now..including food.. so remember get yourself a 400W system..ORGANIC!!! nutes..and just do it..for yourself..will be a new hobby..fresh clean tree's without chemicals..and you will be saving bare cash in the long run.. Good luck all..forget about all this legal crap..just DIY..far more easier unless your a loser who brags none stop you might get caught but just DIY!!! Stop funding the GOV and its dirty tricks

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: veggie]
    #13357042 - 10/19/10 11:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the article Veggie.  I enjoy hearing Jeffrey Miron's thoughts concerning the drug war and prohibition in general.  He always brings common sense to the table.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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OfflineShroom Queen
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: SuperD]
    #13357564 - 10/19/10 01:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Pleassse everyone in cali go vote yes for prop 19!!!
If cali does it, its only a matter of time before another state adopts the same law! Then another, Then hopefully mine! lol

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OfflineAsAboveSoBelow
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: Shroom Queen]
    #13357830 - 10/19/10 02:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yesterday was the last day to register to vote in California - so kiss a shit ton of potential Yes votes goodbye

All this talk about Yes on 19 but there wasnt nearly enough warnings  telling people to register early on :shake:


--------------------


You're gonna get hurt real bad :smile:

They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind

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Offlineguest1
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: AsAboveSoBelow]
    #13358017 - 10/19/10 03:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If Prop 19 passes, this will encourage other states to legalize. And if enough states do so, the pressure on the federal government could pass a tipping point.

By adopting Prop 19, California can restore a presumption of liberty.




Thats why it needs to pass, it puts pressure on other states to follow suit and on the federal law to be changed. 1 State isn't going to do it, but it takes 1 state to start.

If Prop 19 passes, a lot of people will gain respect for the country (USA) and the feeling that THE PEOPLE are allowed to help control their own country and not feel like a prisoner or a slave to the government, will be restored. If Prop 19 fails to pass, everyone will just say "I knew that would happen" and everything will likely remain normal for the rest of the nation.

I wish I lived in California, because I would vote YES on Prop 19.

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OfflineHappy2fly
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: AsAboveSoBelow]
    #13358049 - 10/19/10 03:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AsAboveSoBelow said:
Yesterday was the last day to register to vote in California - so kiss a shit ton of potential Yes votes goodbye

All this talk about Yes on 19 but there wasnt nearly enough warnings  telling people to register early on :shake:




Does that mean you forgot to register?

That's pretty stupid that you have to register so far ahead of voting day.  Here in MN, you can register on voting day at your polling place.  You just have to bring proof that you live in the precinct.

If you live in CA though, you should know the routine...


--------------------
The fire has many things to teach.
But so does the human experience.. which is like fire, sometimes you just need to stoke the coals and sometimes you just need to add a log or reposition the log matrix. But a well built fire will be much more self-sustaining than a poorly built one, and they all need love to grow. And don't fuck around or your might burn yourself. Must always respect the fire. - Shroomism

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Offlineblujay
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: paulioni613]
    #13358521 - 10/19/10 05:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paulioni613 said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Quote:

Full legalization sounds like a major policy change. But under existing law, marijuana is almost legal in many respects. Almost anyone can get a prescription for medical marijuana, and prices are not much elevated compared with a legal market. So legalization would have minimal impact on use. This means that concerns over the negatives of use -- valid or not -- are irrelevant.




This isn't true. Not everybody is going to get a recommendation for cannabis by visiting one or two doctors and paying a couple hundred dollars just to get their medical script.  Also some cities don't allow dispensaries and people must drive far to get medical. Also theft is a problem with outdoor grows in residential areas and theft with medical cannabis because it still retains a high market value. If it is purely legal there would definitely be a change and many many many more people would be growing marijuana eliminating a good amount of theft, and the loop hole of having to pay a doctor and find a dispensary.





yep as i been saying..it is far easier than you think to grow..if you visit any hydro store..well in my area those guys are willing to help you out with anything you need to know..and i think its only a matter of time before the U.s. gov comes up with a MJ plant that can cause cancer..or at least make these growers of their medical crops use Nutes that are Gov. Made that could cause Cancer..the Gov will not make it legal unless they are making money off people getting sick from it to..thats a fact with almost everything now..including food.. so remember get yourself a 400W system..ORGANIC!!! nutes..and just do it..for yourself..will be a new hobby..fresh clean tree's without chemicals..and you will be saving bare cash in the long run.. Good luck all..forget about all this legal crap..just DIY..far more easier unless your a loser who brags none stop you might get caught but just DIY!!! Stop funding the GOV and its dirty tricks




Mkay, someone has to say it, this is batshit chemtrail crazy right here. The GOVT doesn't want to give you SANSER!


--------------------

wat man rly

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: veggie]
    #13360016 - 10/19/10 10:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

veggie said:

In a free society, the presumption must be that people can smoke, snort, eat or inject whatever they wish, so long as they do not harm others. The burden of proof should rest on those who would ban marijuana, not those who want it legal. That burden has never been met.

By adopting Prop 19, California can restore a presumption of liberty. That is reason enough.






I'm really glad this is in here. I'm astonished at how often this gets forgotten amid the debate around all the little details in what is a hugely important gesture.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineCodes
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: paulioni613]
    #13360151 - 10/19/10 11:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yea dude, inhaling any kind of smoke is likely to give you cancer...

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OfflineSirNoseDvoidoFungi
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: auronlives69]
    #13360587 - 10/20/10 02:14 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

auronlives69 said:
~California might also see a reduction of around $960 million in expenditure on arrests, prosecutions and prisons, but only by laying off police, judges and prison guards~

shit good riddance, the world is too overcrouded with these swine



Thank you; I'm glad I wasn't the only one appalled by this "reason".

Oh no! Stopping people from being erroneously arrested and imprisoned will cause police to lose their jobs! We MUST keep it illegal for their sake!

I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.  This sentiment is the short-sighted non-thinking that propagates and prolongs BAD SYSTEMS like the drug war.

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OfflineJustChill
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: veggie]
    #13360588 - 10/20/10 02:15 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Its so freakin easy to get a club card. I dont even want prop 19 to pass because im not 21 yet, but that doesnt mean im not gunna vote for it to pass.

Some fool on the news got his club card because when he was 14 he broke his pinky and every now and then it hurts to move, the guy was like 45.

I got mine cuz i have insomnia and chronic back pains.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: JustChill]
    #13360690 - 10/20/10 03:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The point about saving money by laying off cops is valid. He's saying the savings come not from court-related costs, but from firing people. This means the savings won't be seen until those cops are fired, which takes a long time. That being said, the "we need to keep it illegal so we can bankroll or police department!" argument is disgusting.

Also:
Quote:

Legalization advocates also believe that bringing the market above ground will spur related industries, such as head shops or marijuana cafes. Most of this economic activity, however, is already present; legalization just recognizes it officially. Marijuana cafes, for example, will shift business from medical marijuana dispensaries, or bars, without a major net increase.




I don't think this is true. The majority of smokers don't smoke in "dispensaries and bars". The creation of a new business would add to economic activity.

There is also the idea of marijuana tourism. This doesn't have to do with people going to California for the sole reason of smoking marijuana, but rather an extra influence on their decision on where to holiday. Why do so many people go to Amsterdam instead of Brussels? Tourists also inject money into the local economy with almost every dollar they spend.

Furthermore, if 100% of people who smoked marijuana in California had medical cards, then his arguments would be more valid. But this is simply not the case.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13360903 - 10/20/10 07:04 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

many more people would be growing marijuana eliminating a good amount of theft.



Unfortunately legalizing Marijuana doesn't reduce the number of antisocial individuals in any given society, so I would have to disagree. There will still be the same amount of litte shit punks who'd rather raid someone elses garden instead of putting in any effort of their own.


--------------------
"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: German Kahuna]
    #13361040 - 10/20/10 08:19 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
Quote:

many more people would be growing marijuana eliminating a good amount of theft.



Unfortunately legalizing Marijuana doesn't reduce the number of antisocial individuals in any given society, so I would have to disagree. There will still be the same amount of litte shit punks who'd rather raid someone elses garden instead of putting in any effort of their own.




True, but the incentive to steal will drop, due to the drop in value. It will get to a point where it won't be worth it to steal.

It's going to be high school kids who steal, rather than sophisticated operations and professionals.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: veggie]
    #13361110 - 10/20/10 08:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The bullshit about the 'medical marijuana' script is you have to re-new EVERY year and go to a doctor and pay another $200--- getting an asthma inhaler or some sleeping pills isn't nearly as difficult.  I think people are USING the medical pot as a source of profit. 

maybe full legalization will put a stop to this charade.


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: travelleler]
    #13361237 - 10/20/10 09:21 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

^ QFT.

Another thing about medical marijuana is that healthy people are exploiting it as a loophole. This is both damaging and unsustainable, and eventually it will be closed. I bet all the "stoners against legalization" would change their tune about prop 19 if a bill were passed restricting the medical marijuana prescriptions in CA to HIV, cancer, and MS sufferers and the like only (like the laws in Maine.

The status quo is that you have to pretend to be sick to be able to smoke. That is called "taking the piss", because it makes the people who genuinely need it look less legitimate and weakens the argument that it is actually medicine. Medical marijuana is not passing in other states because people just point to California and say, "its just an excuse for healthy people to smoke it!".

Also, MMJ simply isn't worth it for the people who want to smoke just a couple of times a year (I know people that smoke once every couple of months), and not an option for people visiting the state.

I'd like to see medical marijuana in states that don't have it, but I think eventually it will be seen as a recreational substance, but if you can get a prescription for medical use, it will be reimbursed by your health insurance provider/charity. It will be a LONG time before that happens, though :wink:


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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InvisibleLisonAlGaib
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Re: Don't buy the hype on pot legalization [Re: German Kahuna]
    #13361336 - 10/20/10 09:50 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
Unfortunately legalizing Marijuana doesn't reduce the number of antisocial individuals in any given society, so I would have to disagree. There will still be the same amount of litte shit punks who'd rather raid someone elses garden instead of putting in any effort of their own.




I don't agree with your logic here.  It sounds as if you're implying that a new crime wave of home gardens being robbed, will be equal to the amount of illegal growing.  In other words, the amount of crime reduced by eliminating the illegality of common behavior is somehow going to be offset by uncommon, violent, criminal behavior.  That's called a false cause.

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